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Ohio Counseling Conversations
Ohio Counseling Conversations
Let's Unpack That #5: Counselors Seeking Counseling
Why is it so hard for counselors to take their own advice? Despite preaching self-care and healing to clients, many mental health professionals struggle to prioritize their own therapy. Victoria Frazier and Marisa Cargill dive deep into this paradox with refreshing honesty and vulnerability.
The hosts challenge the harmful misconception that seeking counseling somehow diminishes a counselor's credibility or effectiveness. "Just because we know something doesn't mean we don't need support to access that motivation to change," they point out, highlighting the universal truth that knowledge alone doesn't guarantee application. Both hosts openly share their positive experiences with their own counselors, demonstrating how personal therapy enhances rather than undermines their professional capabilities.
Beyond addressing common fears—like appearing "too fragile" or incompetent—the conversation explores the surprising benefits of counselors getting counseling. From gaining fresh perspectives and metaphors (Tori's counselor uses horse-riding analogies she now shares with clients) to experiencing the vulnerability of being on the other side of the couch, therapy provides invaluable insights that textbooks simply can't teach.
The episode culminates in a playful yet insightful game of "Unpack or Put It Back," where the hosts evaluate common therapeutic interactions from the client-counselor perspective. Their verdict on counselors who bring vulnerability to sessions? Enthusiastically "unpack!" Their take on counselors who ask clients for professional advice during paid sessions? Definitely "put it back!"
For counselors considering their own healing journey, for clients curious about their counselor's mental health practices, or for anyone interested in breaking down stigma around seeking help, this episode offers both practical wisdom and permission to embrace imperfection.
What do you think? Send us your questions or topics you'd like us to unpack!
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill and Victoria Frazier
·Editing by Leah Wood & Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Welcome to let's Unpack that a short-form segment from Ohio Counseling Conversations, where we dig into the topics, tools and truths that shape our work as counselors. Whether it's a trending issue, a clinical insight or something we've all been thinking about, we're here to process it together.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to let's Unpack that. I'm Victoria Frazier and I'm Marissa Cargill, and today we are exploring some common misconceptions about counselors seeking their own care. It's so important as people in a helping and healing profession that we make sure we're taking care of ourselves Amen. But it does not always happen to the degree that it should. Right, and I think I always think about, like my first day in my counseling program when we were all sitting in like the ballroom and they were preaching like work-life balance and making sure you're taking care of yourself, and I feel like that fades throughout your grad program, and then I think it fades even more as you are entering the field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that the potential slack on some of those things can really really happen in that time, that busy time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we are so busy and it is so taxing when you're starting and then you know if, depending on the setting you're working in after graduation, if we have productivity requirements or just even if that's not a part of your job, like clients need help and clients need appointments, and so it can be hard to save some in the tank, and some days it's even not possible to save anything in your tank after your work day for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there are a lot of misconceptions that exist around counselors seeking help and in some ways they're legitimate concerns. I suppose we can maybe unpack that a little bit, but in other ways it's more just like, like I said, a misconception, right, if a counselor's getting help by seeking their own counseling, a lot of times people think well, you must not be good at your job, you're not practicing like the skills that you're telling me as a client, or even other counselors do this sometimes to each other. Right, like that. It could be sort of like well, you should know better, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I even have heard that from like well-meaning or well-intentioned, like friends and family, where it's like, well, you know the things, why aren't you just doing them? And I think that really does speak to the value of our work, that even though, yes, I have a lot of coping skills, one, I don't know everything, and so that's why collaboration is so important, and also being able to teach someone the skills is very different from the application in your own set of life circumstances. Right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're very human right, and so I mean I always am sharing that with my clients to understand, like the humanity that we all have in that if we all knew better and did better, like this world would be much less problematic in so many ways.
Speaker 1:But it's because we are human and sometimes we can't get those ducks in a row to do better because we're in a in a stuck pattern due to being busy and maybe having a lot of responsibilities and and and and right, and so sometimes it feels like there are barriers in the way of us doing the things that are meaningful, and so having someone to support us and help us build insight into where there might be opportunities for us to make changes is really meaningful and doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't capable of helping someone else. It's just that we also all are deserving of having someone support us in that way too, and so that's maybe one major misconception. I think another one is part of it beyond like not being good or not, like not knowing enough or doing enough. It's that maybe this person is, like too fragile. If a counselor is seeking counseling of their own, are they too fragile to help someone else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also think there's that like you have to have everything put together in order to help someone else, like you can't have your own things you're working on, and obviously that brings its own consideration. Like if you're going through a journey with grief and you have a new client who has it's ringing too many bells and it's feeling too similar, maybe that is a time where it would be more ethical to refer out. But that isn't always the case, especially if it's something you've moved through yourself right, if you have kind of evolved through that process. I think that gives you a lot of meaningful insight when you're working with clients through that process.
Speaker 1:I think that gives you a lot of meaningful insight when you're working with clients, and what I'll say to that is I think it speaks to what I was mentioning is sometimes they're valid concerns, right, and it's not just a misconception, but that's a spectrum, because there could be something about someone's life experience that might make them too fragile where they need to ethically take time away so that they are not harming clients or themselves really, and, yes, that's a possibility. However, I think, in a similar vein, those counselors who are seeking counseling to address something that maybe feels heavy or fragile to them in their life right now is what helps them support their clients because they're seeking the support. They're not transferring it onto these client conversations, because they are strong enough to get the help needed and address those things in their own services right. Like that it's not. It's not as likely to come through if they're also getting their own support through having their own counseling sessions regularly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's interesting you bring up transference, because one of the things that I was thinking about while you were talking I mean I was listening, but was that if you're not taking good care of yourself? Was that if you're not taking good care of yourself, or if you're not getting your own support and work is becoming challenging, or we're just losing our enthusiasm or our spark, that can transfer onto how we're engaging with clients, like unintentionally. But if you start to resent going to work or or the clients you're working with, that is going to do harm not only to your practice but to the people who are trying to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think there's, you know, definitely other misconceptions, like we know everything and so we know all the things, we learned all the things in school and so how could we actually benefit from it? I think you already touched on like how that happens. Is that just because we know something doesn't mean we don't need support to access like some of that motivation to change or seeing the opportunity for growth differently when we're talking about it with another professional?
Speaker 2:Or that they might have had differences in their training and maybe they have a skill we aren't as well versed in. Like you have an EMDR certification and that's not something I'm familiar with, but I don't have a certification in it. But I do like sand tray. You know therapy and that's not something I mean you don't need a certification per se, but you, that's not something that you're like whipping out virtually for clients to do. There are virtual ones, but it's not the same.
Speaker 1:And it's, you know, that speaks to the diversity of our subculture as professional counselors right, that there are so many opportunities to learn something different, and I find that, actually, that that's something that could be really meaningful because it not only helps you understand yourself as an individual who's maybe experiencing life in challenging ways, or even if you're just doing it more preventatively we all have challenges but also it helps us understand our clients differently when we have those other perspectives where it's like, oh, you might have an aha moment where I will say, being in my own counseling regularly and ongoing, I have so much perspective sometimes where I'm like this helps me professionally, it helps me consider, you know, this helps me professionally. It helps me consider, you know my myself as a human and how that you know operates. But then, oh, I wonder if this could be something similar for that client who's experiencing, you know, other relationship dynamics that aren't completely on a like mind. Yeah Right, totally. One of the other things I think a lot of counselors may fear and I don't know if it's like a maybe it's a fear and a misconception is that if a counselor discloses that they have their helper counselor, that their clients might lose confidence in them in them. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I guess like I'd have to pull my clients to really understand, but I try not to shy away from it because I think it's important to normalize it and that, if you know you think everyone's got it all together like that, doesn't mean you still don't deserve those things. So if you see me as someone who is intelligent and can be really helpful and provide you with the support and care that helps you, why wouldn't you also be able to see yourself that way? Yeah Right, like that, it's modeling like that. This is helpful for me. I I know that it's a lot for me to carry by myself and I prefer to have that space to process whatever's going on for me and learn from it and help keep me motivated to work on what I need to address, accept what I need to accept, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also have my own provider who I see provider, such like a fancy word. Her name's Maya, she's the best and I one of the things I mean. I love my own journey in counseling and I find so much value in it and I have seen so much, you know, change in just how I move the world. But one of the other things I really value is like I kind of like lift things she does with me sometimes and like she, she's a horse girl, she has three horses and sometimes we do equine therapy and she has this she it's so cute.
Speaker 2:I love Bandit is my best friend. That's the horse that you do the main therapy with. But anyway, she uses a lot of like horse metaphors with me which are not authentic to my experience. But she talks about like when you're leaning in and when you're in the flow and when you're like confident in yourself, you're sitting in your seat because when you ride a horse, if you're not moving with the horse and you're not willing to wiggle and bend, you're going to fall off. And I think that's such a powerful metaphor and like a phrase that I really love to say and like I even use it. Just this week I had a client come in and they're having a really great week, lots of changes happening. I decided, wow, you're really sitting in your seat and we got to talk through that metaphor and I always give her credit because like that's not authentic to my experience, right, and so I think even like her perspective is helping me, but it's also helping my clients too. So I think it's it's nice to have that to pull from in my counseling toolbox.
Speaker 1:And and it's perspective right. Like I think sometimes when my counselor shout out, casey, if you're listening, says things, it's, it's something that I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like I and maybe if I had like sat with it long enough, I would have come to this conclusion on my own. But giving feedback from what I'm sharing and when I'm overwhelmed and it's like, oh, I got this going on, I got this family issue and this relationship issue, and like I'm stressed with some of my other responsibilities, that it becomes like, oh, there's so much going on that you're helping me like sift through it and notice, like where I might be concerned, that about a behavior I'll be transparent. Like we were talking about avoidance in my most recent session and I was frustrated with some avoidance from other people, while also concerned that I was like maybe engaging in similar patterns, and she was able to just say like well, let's like not put moral judgment on avoidance for a second and understand that.
Speaker 1:Like sometimes avoidance happens for reasons and let's think about the reasons behind the avoidance. That doesn't mean like you have to like the other person's avoidance, but what like? What's behind your avoidant behavior then? Like what's behind you avoiding right now and is it purposeful or not? Like, like, let's. And I'm like, oh, like, just help me take a step back, right and this. This is not for me to say like that I'm going to endorse everyone. Just avoid stuff like, let's be clear.
Speaker 1:But I think it was helpful for me to reframe Right, and I think because I was so overwhelmed I couldn't see the forest through the trees, and so it's just like, getting that perspective is useful. I don't think that that makes me maybe like a bad counselor, but that that's sort of like the misconception or the concerns a lot of times or that clients would would see that. But I'm like, oh, I could use that, right, I can take that back to session. But that clients most of the clients that I've like shared that with are usually pretty excited. Yeah, like, the oh like, and so I refer to my I'm like your grand therapist because social media has that. So I learned it from TikTok. So I'm not like you know, not my copyright, but that you know this is your grand therapist, that that's something that I learned and I wonder if that would be useful, given what you've shared with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's, that's going in the pocket. I think one of the things, like, as we were talking about this episode and this is one we've kind of wanted to do since we started talking about doing like different kinds of content for the podcast is, I feel so fortunate to have such a wonderful therapist that I work with, and I know that you find a lot of value in yours as well, and so we are. I would love for us to talk a little bit about, like, what you find important in finding your own counselor, when, when you know, we do have our own qualifications and expertise and I think that this is part of the like.
Speaker 1:This is maybe one of the harder parts to navigate, because, with finding a counselor, as a counselor, it's meaningful to work with someone who maybe has already experienced someone like who like not someone, but maybe several someone's like, who have worked with other clinicians, who get what that's like. Also, if I'm putting it bluntly like who can sometimes see through things that you know, like they cut the crap a bit easier because they see that maybe we're avoiding a topic and we, you know, as counselors, we're still human, but maybe you're like, yep, that's what I needed. Like I needed you to see that and like thank you for for cutting through some of that, but that if they've worked with other clinicians, they have an understanding of, like what our lived experience is like, not only from their own experience, right, but that they've also seen patterns when they've worked with people from this population.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, they're diversifying the portfolio Right For sure, I know also just like having someone who is a little more tenured, like I had when I was in my practicum. I had someone who was also in practicum and that was super intimidating as like just a very young therapist and so like we had a great time and like things went really well. But I did every time before that appointment I got a little nervous, and so having someone with experience who just is going to call you out is if that's your preferred way to engage or call you in yes or right, just like notice and observe and reflect that back.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's important and meaningful and much needed. I and maybe that's me speaking from my own like lens of things of it. It's nice to just be seen and not have to sort of I don't know, I don't know, wait to funnel down right, like that we funnel down more quickly.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's that might be a personal preference for some, I will say I think one of the things that can be a little challenging just as someone who has had other counselors on their caseload and as someone who's in counseling is like work is still something we do and work is something that we talk about in therapy and obviously within our ethical, legal bounds, we want to keep that in mind, but it can be hard to find the line between like I need to talk to you about work or there's like I'm not doing my notes or like this client's really I'm noticing some, some transference or whatever it is and having someone who's able to keep you in the role of client and not meeting with you as if you're having like consultation or supervision or something, Because that there's a place for that Right, but that's not your personal therapy.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm, mm, hmm. Yes, like I think that that's really important and I guess I'm grateful because every counselor I've ever worked with has done a great job at that, even one of the counselors that I saw years ago that I wasn't like particularly fond of right, like I terminated because it was just it didn't feel like a good fit for other reasons, but like never blurred that in ways that felt like wait, what are you talking about here? Right? Yeah, I think that that's so meaningful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's also like work for us to do right, as like we also have to show up with our client hat on and try our best to kind of stay in our lane as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe I'm just good at that. I'm like I got too many other things I need I want to talk about like let's, let's dig in.
Speaker 2:I know that my therapist if I'm talking too much about work, she'll always ask me, like what's going on? Like is there something else? Because I love my job and I love talking about it, even when it is frustrating or hard, and so sometimes I like just to be transparent. I can default to talking about that if something else is challenging or stressful. And so she we've been working together for a while and and so she also knows to be like hey, is there something else?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I feel like what's different for me in in positive ways is that I think I talk a lot about being a counselor and how that maybe interacts with my external world not professionally, yeah, where there are and and maybe I'm disclosing stuff that will be relatable for some but maybe not for everyone. Is that like sometimes you're getting people sharing in your life, like things that feel heavy and that can be really hard.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it might look more like people avoid you for that same reason yeah, or you get like don't, don't therapize me, I get that sometimes or they want to consult on things that like can challenge your ethical responsibilities, which I feel like also as a counselor educator that came in to play sometimes, where you know people might stay after class and ask for advice about oh I have a friend, you know, whatever and so it's talking about some of those things.
Speaker 1:I think that intersection that we have as counselors it can, it's, I consider it part of my identity. I don't always know when I'm asking a friend like how did that make you feel, Like I'm not consciously always making that decision, to like say I'm going to ask this counselor question now, but that I am coming from a place of curiosity and support. But that in processing the parts of like how my counseling identity intersects with my personal life, is, I think, what shows up more in my sessions than maybe like a client consultation, because I do try to very be intentional about it and like if I need consultation for a client like, I'm likely to connect with a colleague yeah, and I think that's also like we need to make sure we're building those support systems and networks for ourselves so that we can also be intentional about the space we're leaving just for us, right?
Speaker 1:Yes. So I think, as we've navigated into this new content format, we've started playing some games and, to be fair with everyone, like we don't see counselors getting their own counseling services as a game, but we think it is fun to help put some you know, fun, playful spins on some of the things that we probably encounter in these types of spaces as counselors seeking counseling. And so we're going to play our game unpack or put it back, where we decide what we'd like to unpack and keep or what we maybe like to get rid of and put back. So first, on this, it might be something that just gets said in a lot of sessions for counselors in counseling. Well, you probably already know this Unpack or put it back.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's a cop out to say like I have the box half open, because I think they're well intentioned when they say it and I know that, like I've said that once or twice in my tenure, short as it may be, but I think it's like them trying to recognize that, like you have an expertise, and maybe saying it some a different way. Right, and saying like you might have already come across this, or like this is this, this might be in your tool belt, instead of like probably, I think is setting a different expectation and it can be a little kinder, or like not that they're trying to be unkind, right, but I think it's them trying to acknowledge you have an expertise, but at the same time, it can feel I, it can feel on the client end a little bit like oh, pop quiz, and so, yeah, I think I can understand the message behind it. But maybe we need to reconsider the default phrase.
Speaker 1:So, interestingly enough, I feel like I say it more than probably my counselors does. At least I'd have to really sit and kind of rack my archives to consider if my past counselors have ever said something like that. But currently I feel like sometimes it's more like I know, you know this, yeah, but maybe I don't hear it so much and I think that might just be my counselor's personality. But I would say, yes, language matters. In good faith, I'm fine with them. You know unpack, yeah, in good faith, I'm fine with them. You know, unpack, yeah. So next unpack. Put it back. When your counselor laughs with you about counseling in jokes or memes, etc. Unpack immediately.
Speaker 2:Love it.
Speaker 1:Love it, love to laugh. Humor is relationship building. It can also be an intervention in and of itself. In and of itself, I can't speak. I also love laughing with my clients, so like why would I want to laugh with my counselor? Like I think it's such a helpful tool, and like there's actually research I don't, I know it exists, I couldn't tell you the author off the top of my head, see if I can find it but that when you make something funny, it is actually like, in terms of pedagogy, a good teaching, yeah, tool, because people remember things more when it's connected to something that they laughed about. And so I I take that like obviously I know like it's not our goal alone to be teachers, as counselors, but that is like sort of a hat we wear often. And so I think humor, amen, let's do it. Unpack all day. What about bringing their own vulnerability to the session? Unpack or put it back.
Speaker 2:I think unpack, I think it always makes me feel like held, almost when my, when my people are telling me something that's like a peek into their life and I I always feel like really valued as a, as a client, when, when a counselor shares something with me.
Speaker 1:Right, I agree, I think self-disclosure what we learn in grad school is maybe a bit too reductive. Yeah, and I really think it's good modeling for clients, even when the client is a counselor. Yeah, I agree, a hundred percent. Okay, what about when they check on you, when you're sliding out of client mode, like or check, check you like?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Unpack or put it back. Love Unpack.
Speaker 2:I've gotten better at it, as I've gotten more comfortable in my like counselor identity and as my person Tori identity. I it doesn't happen as much, but when it does happen I appreciate a gentle but firm check.
Speaker 1:I support it. Unpack Love. How about if they ask you for advice on other clients? I hope that we post video of this. If you could have just seen Tori's face post video of this.
Speaker 2:If you could have just seen Tori's face. Put it back, put it all the way back. No, thank you. I just I think, especially if you are a client and, like you know, all client counselor relationships are different and they have their own nuances and things but, like, if you're there to be vulnerable and you you need to like talk about something that's really hard, and they're like oh, by the way, what do you think about this situation that can take you out of? Like you've I don't know about you, but like I'm like okay, I've got to get ready, it's time to talk about my stuff, and I feel like it's just kind of like what? Okay, yeah, let me try to think about what I would think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like oppositional compared to like checking you. If you're coming out of client mode because it's like a request to put you into counselor mode, I say put it back. However, I will add a caveat that if it's not during my paid time, then you and you shoot me an email like as a console. I know ethically like the dual relationship situation could come in, but as a console. I know ethically like the dual relationship situation could come in. But if I can share a resource or something like I don't feel like that.
Speaker 1:That is like maybe to me, like yeah, we could go through an ethical decision-making model in a different episode about how that would. I would want not want it to be regular, but like if they knew that I had a specific expertise and wanted to be able to share something. I don't think I would be that bothered by it because we're professionals in the same profession. Yeah, but it would not be during my session. Like that would be. Like it could absolutely I'm private, pay like I need to. Every dollar I'm private, pay Like I need to. Every dollar I'm spending come from like me getting what I need out of session.
Speaker 2:Or like, I think also if they know you have a passion for something and they want to shoot a referral your way as long as, like you know, we are checking the like ethical situations, I think that's also different than like what do you think about this client I have, I think that's also different than like what do you think about this client I have?
Speaker 1:And when I was first like looking at this question, I also was considering like I think maybe I didn't mistake it, but it made me think of like my mom used to do this and I hate it. But I think that that might be something I should also talk about in therapy. But I would get upset if I was struggling with something and like venting about it to my mom. She would say what would you tell a client that was going through that or how would you like? And I'm like I don't want to think about being a counselor right now, I just want to be upset. Meh, you know, and I don't know if I would enjoy if my counselor asked me that either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's a really good point, but I know that I would be more compassionate.
Speaker 1:I'm sure that, like I would probably be a much more emotionally intelligent like response to the situation if I used that lens. Like I totally get it, but it's just that sometimes you're like. I'm not ready to hear that yeah, no, so it might be useful and in some ways that could be an unpack but repurposed a little. What about clients who share anecdotes from like their own experience, like whether as a counselor or just another human out in the world? I?
Speaker 2:mean, I think we covered this a little bit, but like, definitely yeah.
Speaker 1:Loves it.
Speaker 2:Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, that's. That wraps up the game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, if anything, we want to leave everyone listening with a question, which is if you, as a counselor, were your own client, not to do the question none of us like from our moms, what would you want your therapist to be like? And sit with that, because it might point you towards the helping professional who's the right fit for you.
Speaker 1:And that wraps up this episode of let's Unpack that Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an update. If you have questions, feedback or a topic you'd like us to unpack, be sure to drop us a line. You can send us a text from the link in our show notes or connect with us on our socials. Thanks for joining us for let's Unpack that brought to you by Ohio Counseling Conversations and the Ohio Counseling Association. If it sparked something for you, share it with a colleague or drop us a line. We'd love to keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening and until next time, we encourage you to keep unpacking the big stuff, one conversation at a time.