Ohio Counseling Conversations
Ohio Counseling Conversations
Conversation 37 - Sustaining Counselors Through Shortages and Strain
Feeling the squeeze of staffing shortages, rising acuity, and endless admin while trying to hold real space for clients? We sat down with Dr. Alicia Hall—counselor, supervisor, and advocate—to talk about a path forward that doesn’t rely on grit alone. The conversation centers on vitality, a grounded sense of aliveness that fuels resilience, powers meaning making, and opens the door to vicarious transformation. Rather than ignoring vicarious trauma or glorifying burnout, we map the signals, name the systems that intensify it, and explore concrete ways to reconnect with purpose.
We trace Alicia’s 15-year journey in trauma work and unpack how counselors can move from exhaustion to transformation by aligning with core values, building true community, and right-sizing expectations. You’ll hear pragmatic strategies—tightening documentation without writing novels, adjusting caseloads, seeking trauma-informed supervision, and creating peer consult circles that normalize human reactions. We also highlight bright spots across Ohio: professionals and clients alike turning advocacy into action, pushing back on harmful policy, and modeling the kind of collective care that keeps counselors in the field.
For new professionals navigating their first heavy stories and for seasoned clinicians questioning whether to stay, this is a candid, hopeful guide. We talk about the subtle ways hypervigilance shows up, the joy of witnessing client wins, and how advocacy itself can be a form of meaning making. If you’ve wondered how to keep showing up with integrity and energy, you’ll find tools, language, and community touchpoints to help you sustain the work you’re called to do.
If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave a review to help more Ohio counselors find it. Then tell us: what’s one practice that strengthens your vitality this week?
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If you’re a counselor in Ohio and would like to get involved as part of production or as a guest, or know someone who might be interested, please email us at ohiocounselingconversations@gmail.com!
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Marisa Cargill
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill
·Editing by Leah Wood & Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations, the official podcast of the Ohio Counseling Association, where we hold space for the people behind the profession. We're here to highlight the voices, stories, and work of counselors, educators, and advocates across Ohio. Whether you're in the field or just curious about the power of counseling, this is where connection meets conversation. Let's dig in. I'm your host, Dr. Marissa Cargill, and today we're diving into a topic that feels especially urgent in this moment in our profession. How counselors can sustain themselves, their calling, and their hope in the midst of workforce shortages, vicarious trauma, burnout, and the systemic barriers that seem to multiply by the day. But today's conversation isn't about despair. It's about vitality, meaning making, vicarious transformation, and the reminder that even in chaotic and challenging times, we are capable of profound resilience. I'm honored to be joined by Dr. Alicia Hall, a counselor, supervisor, and advocate who brings a powerful message of encouragement that counselors can reconnect to what gives them life, reclaim their sense of purpose, and remain rooted in the work we are called to do. So if you're feeling tired, stretched thin, or wondering how to keep showing up, this episode is our love letter to you. Take a breath, settle in, and let's walk toward hope together. And we are so happy to be joined by Dr. Alicia Hall. Alicia, thank you so much for joining us today. We're so happy to have you on Ohio Counseling Conversations. Welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really excited to be able to talk today and kind of share some things that I'm excited about. And yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experiences? Like what led you to the profession?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, I I've always, I think, had big interest, even when I was a kid, with like wanting to understand how people work, how they think, how they get through things. And, you know, throughout, you know, college, I guess, getting into that, really went this counseling path. So I've been practicing, oh my goodness, I'm looking now at the date in like a little over 15 years, I've been doing this work. So I guess that probably makes me a lifer at this point. Um, and throughout that, you know, I do I specialize in in doing trauma work. I work with kids and families a lot, and I really am passionate about helping people heal from trauma and also variability focused. So I work a lot with people with you know neurodivergence and helping them kind of cope with you know things that they're dealing with as well.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And I think, yeah, you are a lifer. I think that we can, you know, we could at least say we we think that that's a good estimate of time. I don't know if there's a a definition, but like let's define it. Yes, you're a lifer. You mentioned when we were preparing for the interview some of your passions and that counselor career sustainability is a really big passion point for you. What do you think like sustainability really looks like for us right now, given provider shortages and some relentless systemic pressures we're facing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I I think we all know, obviously, you know, we talk about things like provider shortages and we talk about just the difficulty of the work that we do. And it is the reality that, you know, I think every one of us who come into this profession, we come in with a passion and a desire to help people and to be there. And like we come in with, you know, we we choose this profession from passion and we feel like it's a calling. And often when we hit the reality of the work itself, you know, working with clients, right? That's very taxing. It's very, it can be very emotionally draining. Alongside that, right, working within a system that is very broken, whether it's, you know, within a practice or an agency that isn't healthy, whether it's insurance-driven care, whether it's, you know, we're sharing these collective, you know, collective traumas, you know, throughout, you know, yeah, the the US and the world. And so there's a lot that we're contending with. And so I think that the when that reality hits very often as counselors, whether we're new or we're seasoned, there's so much potential to be like, I can't do this anymore. This isn't, this isn't healthy for me, or I'm not, I'm burnt out, I'm not able to continue. And so, you know, for me, I I look at that and I go, well, our passion, you know, my passion is client welfare, client care. Well, how can we do that if we don't have, you know, counselors who are able to be sustainable? And so that's a lot of where I've been shifting over the last few years. And how can I help counselors with like, let's keep going, let's keep doing the work, let's keep figuring out how to keep our passion and to work through these really difficult challenges that we face.
SPEAKER_01:Preach, yes, okay. Yeah, I think like so many things like resonate for me with with what you just shared in terms of like what we experience, like as counselors, whether no matter how far along we are in the profession, that there's just a lot of heaviness in in the air right now. And a lot of counselors are carrying some heavy stuff, personal or vicarious trauma. Like, can you speak to like when someone might be m moving more towards what's considered vicarious transformation rather than like vicarious exhaustion?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I think, you know, one, it it's we have to really be able to identify like, are we experiencing some of these like deleterious effects of the counseling work, like vicarious trauma? And you know, I think there's a gap in that, right? There's a gap in how we talk about that. There's a gap within maybe employers, there's a gap sort of as a whole that we're just supposed to keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, and not recognizing that, hey, I might be having this experience of vicarious trauma, or I might be experiencing burnout, or I might be questioning if this is my calling. You know, and and to kind of put it in context, I mean, we even statistically wise, right? Like during, especially during COVID and after COVID, like there's some research that's out there that talks about like 80% of like mental health providers, including counselors, experienced like or noted I had this has had a negative impact on my work life and my personal life. And that's a huge amount. I mean, that's the majority of us, right? Yeah. Um, there's stats that say that almost 50% of counselors experience experience vicarious trauma. And even after after the pandemic as well, like 52% of just healthcare workers as a whole, including counselors, talk about just leaving the field altogether. Yeah. And so these are very real things that I don't think we talk about and we don't recognize. We we kind of encourage people to just keep keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing. And if you can't keep pushing, there's something wrong with you. You're not committed enough, you're not, you know, excited enough. And so I look at, you know, at this point, I just really believe that we're all going to experience some level of vicarious trauma or some level of burnout in our career, whether it's early on, whether it's later on, like there's that that is just going to happen because of the world that we live in and the types of things our clients are dealing with. And so if we know that, right, we can prepare. And we can also talk about, like, okay, yes, these are negative things that can happen that we can be affected by, but also there's this really incredible piece of what we do that can promote this idea of vicarious transformation. You know, sure we've experienced some negative things as a result of what we do, but then how can we move towards feeling, you know, tapping into our meaning-making, tapping into the things that give us purpose, tapping into being able to see how we've been transformed in positive ways by the work that we do and being able to lean into math.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah, it's it's as a counselor, like I'm just thinking even of my own personal experiences and how like sometimes it's isolating, right? Like the work that we do can be like, okay, well, this actually does exist in a vacuum because there's only like so many people I can talk to about this. And so some of those like strategies you mentioned require community, right? Yeah. We talk about burnout a lot in the vicarious trauma, but we don't talk about the meaning-making that you mentioned. How do you feel like counselors can reconnect and and to their own purpose to others when like this work feels so extraordinarily like consuming, overwhelming, etc.? Especially when like maybe the systemat systemic challenges are like kind of at play too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I think some meaning making I I really believe does play a huge role in kind of the the the how-to, right? Like, how do we, as counselors, heal? How do we continue to having that momentum and that excitement for what we do? Where I've really been leaning into, and this is partially from just the work I did in my dissertation, and also in in the research that's kind of out there right now. There's not a lot of it, but I've really been digging into this idea of vitality more often. And vitality really, I mean, it's sort of this idea of like the energy, the way we sustain energy, the way that we kind of like experience aliveness or experience that like sort of ability to kind of like feel in tune and feel, you know, that excitement, that passion. And so I really am looking at vitality now as almost like this sort of foundational construct that really kind of is foundational for the idea of resiliency, mean-making, even like vicarious post-traumatic growth. And when I say it's sort of this foundational construct, I look at it as sort of like vitality is kind of like a way of being. You know, it's that the the whatever's inside of us that just gives us that energy, that gives us that life force. And then the way we connect to a vitality, it's like that's the what we do, right? Vitality connection is like action. How do we put our vitality into action? How do we connect with that? And I really believe that when we are able to connect with vitality within ourselves, then we are kind of creating this sort of vibrant, energizing sanctuary within ourselves that we're able to pull from when we start to experience the hard parts of what we do, or we experience these system systematic issues that are hindering our work and hindering our clients' progress. Um, and I really feel like it's this, it's it's what helps us feel refreshed and it helps us sustain that like that passion and that motivation and that belief. And so I I've really been kind of leaning into how do we promote that connection to vitality within ourselves so that we can keep doing the work so we can be sustainable.
SPEAKER_01:Do you have any like practical suggestions suggestions of like how counselors can really cultivate that? Like, how do we put that into motion or practice?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I have a lot of ideas. It's hard to narrow that down. But I think it starts with, as with everything in what we do, it starts with just awareness within ourselves. Hey, you know, what is vitality to me? What does that feel like? What does that look like? How can I sit within that and kind of know what that what that feels like, right? Um, and gaining some awareness about what are the things that help me feel connected to vitality? What are things that maybe disconnect me from vitality? Some things that I have found within either my research or within the research in general is that some big barriers for disconnection from vitality are things like vicarious trauma, burnout, not feeling supported, like not having a support system around you, or that sense of community, having systemic issues like insurance-driven care, or maybe employers who aren't supportive or who have really high expectations for productivity. I know we don't use that word anymore, but productivity is what it is, or you know, just feeling like you were saying before, feeling isolated. Another piece of it too is this idea of sort of that co-transference, right? You know, people sometimes think about counter-transference, but I look at it as back and forth, right? Yeah. But what often, like when we sit, you know, and for myself personally, I can I can pick out situations where I've sat with a client where maybe they've they've shared their trauma narrative with me. And in that moment, as they're sharing, I'm having my own sort of reaction, right? That sometimes can cause a disconnect from that vitality. And I have to sort of like be with my client, that's the most important thing, right? But also deal with this reaction and then deal with the residual as it happens later. And so there's this aspect of you know, being able to identify what are things that create barriers for me to connect with vitality. And then the flip side, right? Looking at things that actually facilitate that connection to vitality.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Because the system is going to set up barriers or challenges, sort of, you know, even when they evolve and change, we know like there will maybe be a a road bump or or what have you, whether it's funding, staffing, just misalignment with maybe what our client needs. What would you say are ways like counselors can connect or reconnect or experience like agency, creativity, yeah, all these things that that connect with vitality?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it, you know, is is not only the reflection piece, right? Like, where am I at with this, but also going, well, what does build up the my sense of connection? What does build up my sense of like, I want to keep doing this? Sometimes I think it's just revisiting why did I begin this work? Like, why did I, why did I come into this profession, especially for seasoned season counselors, you know? I've been now doing this for a little over 15 years. Well, why did I start doing this? Like, why did I decide this is the path I was gonna go, you know, and remembering that path. Um, I think sometimes too, it's, you know, I experience a lot of vicarious resilience from my clients. And so I think, okay, I had this client the other day, and like they did this, this, and this, and then they talked about this. And then I felt like, oh my gosh, well, if they can overcome this thing that they've gone through and they can experience healing, surely like this is one why I'm doing this work. Because I want to help be a part of their healing. And then two, like, I can probably overcome whatever I'm dealing with, you know, and so that tapping into those reminders of the things that like give us purpose, the things that get us excited to keep doing the work. Because there's always going to be something, right? That's going to be a barrier. And then being able to step back and go, you know, this is still why I'm doing it. This is still something that like excites me and makes me want to kind of like, you know, keep doing it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it kind of it helps us continue. It's that that motivation. Are there protective factors that you would say like are are helpful in counselors kind of staying grounded in this calling, even when it's really hard and and we're called to be resilient?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I think a big part, a big piece is like alignment with our core values. You know, I think when we are feeling like we're aligned with our core values, that so much promotes that sense of vitality and that sense of being able to be, you know, whether it's resilient or making meaning. And you know, when we feel like a disconnect with our core values, sometimes that does then like, well, what am I doing? Am I, you know, whether it's maybe some posture syndrome or like, oh my goodness, you know, I'm totally messing this up. What am I doing? I'm gonna, you know, why did I say that in session? You know, whether it's I'm working for a system that's very broken. And so I'm I'm here with my client, but then I'm watching my client be re-traumatized by a system, you know, it's recognizing those points of disconnect, you know, where you feel like you're not in alignment with your core values and then recentering, how do I get back in alignment with those core values? How do I, you know, sit with that like I can keep doing this, or you know, coping with whatever it might be that's coming up that's that's getting in the way. And I think too, it's even just kind of paybacking on that, it's like how we're viewing our role, right, and the process, you know, and and reminding ourselves that like, what is what is my purpose within this role? What is my purpose within this process? And you know, on those days maybe we don't feel like we've done enough, or those days that we're feeling overloaded or we're frustrated because maybe our client is is just not moving along the way we're hoping, right? That there's this reminder of like, but wait, what's my role? What's my purpose in this? And being able to stay in that space and being okay with that. Yeah, those are a couple of things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I'm like just sitting here kind of reflecting on some of my own experiences where I'm like, yeah, I've definitely felt that before, where I'm like, am I making a difference? Right. Like I think and whether that's imposter syndrome or sometimes struggling with our own, like I I consistently, you know, remind myself that it's not my pacing, right? Like, but that can still, you know, I'm human. And so like sometimes it's still like, oh, I I can see this for them, and I know they've seen it for themselves a little bit, but like there's this like regression or just a slower pace than maybe you thought it would be. And it's not like the biggest disappointment, but it still feels like, wait, I thought we I thought we had made progress, and that can feel a little defeating as a counselor. And it's like, no, it's not, you're still here for a reason, and they still show up for a reason, too. So it's like that balance of like, you know, acknowledging your own humanity uh with those other professional responsibilities, and I think that's so important. So I'm just like taking all taking it all in what you're saying, and like I appreciate you commenting about like the value alignment because that is something that I think you know, I'm always a fan of nonfiction, so I'm like, I'm not necessarily reading academic journals at night, like let's be clear. But I like reading some research at times and like being able to share that with clients. And I talk about how value alignment is so connected to satisfaction in our jobs, in our relationships, and our lives, and uh you know, gotta practice what you preach, right? Right. And so like that that was hitting home for me too, that it's like, yeah, the value alignment is is pretty critical to like our well-being.
SPEAKER_00:What I know for myself, and uh something I also I'll I'll when I'm teaching, I'll say this, or when I'm even supervising, I'll say this to supervisees, but for myself, even I often, especially on those like those days, it just feels so soul crushing. I don't know if you've ever experienced those days, but there's just some days where it's maybe you can spend in a row where it's just they're really struggling and you're like, man, this is really tough. And you know, I'm feeling really discouraged and going, you know, what have I done here? Like, am I doing enough? If is, you know, is you know, am I doing good work? You know, those things maybe will run through my mind. And a lot of times I'll step back and go, Hold on, Alicia, like, did you provide a safe space? Did you provide that sort of you know, person-centered, unconditional positive regard, that empathy? Were you congruent? Like, did you do those really core foundational things? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I have done those things. And I'm like, that is enough. That's exactly what you're supposed to do. Anything extra you did was just bonus. And so sometimes you feel like that just brings me back down, like and helps ground me in like, hey, I'm in in alignment with myself. I've done enough.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's okay, you know, and that sometimes helps bring up some of that that discouragement and that, you know, the heaviness.
SPEAKER_01:I'm grateful you said it. I'm like, that's grounding me from like a session I had yesterday. I so thank you. Thank you. Like, I think those are important reminders for us, especially in Ohio. Ohio has been ripe with a lot of challenges in the last couple years, and counselors as a result are facing a lot of pressure and shortages and maybe higher acuity because of some of the political turmoil, legislative barriers. We know that exists and and I think we've had a lot of episodes talking about that. Can you maybe speak to some of the bright spots you feel like are emerging in our field or our communities?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I well, there's definitely a lot of heaviness when it comes statewide, systemically, legislatively. I know that there is this what bright spot for me is is watching one, my clients, but also our profession really rally and sort of stand up and say, hey, like we're not okay with some of this, and we're gonna, we're gonna push back. Like we're gonna do what we need to do to like to push back on the system. And I know a lot of my, even a lot of my clients who are who are maybe within, who are being more affected by these things, you know, watching be able to navigate this really tough time and seeing them, you know, yes, they're struggling, but also they're kind of like, we're gonna like one, get through this and two, we're gonna try to make change happen, you know, whether it's through advocacy, whether it's through I'm gonna live my life, you know. I think those things to me become really inspirational that, you know, the the system doesn't isn't necessarily like while it's maybe trying to like create an even more barriers for people, or it's trying to, you know, oppress people that you know either my clients or us as professionals are like actually rising up more to that, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like meeting the moment in in ways that you know we feel really passionate about. I I was gonna say in in meeting ways that we feel like we must, and maybe that feels too strong, but maybe it doesn't feel strong enough in some ways too, right? But that like meeting those moments and not quitting, like right, having the the resilience, but like the just the directed direction, I should say, like the the it like we're not gonna go back, like right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we're intending to you're intending to disempower us or the people that you know we're also you know allies with. We instead are going to be even more empowered. We're going to be even more like you know, ourselves and and authentic, and we're gonna push back and say this is this is not okay, and we're gonna fight against that if we have to.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. It's it's been a really reflective time. I guess like I can say for myself personally, but I think I'm not alone in that. And with that, it's also brought like some, you know, new things, right? Like I think Before this past year, I have written my representatives, like it wasn't new to me, but it was something that became a lot more like part of my like consistent practice, right? Compared to maybe where I didn't feel like I had to advocate as frequently. But it's made me feel like, okay, I have a voice, I'm gonna use it. And I've been using it more frequently in some of those ways within OCA and also like outside of it. And I think like having these conversations is important so that you know it plants seeds for those who listen, and maybe it plants enough of a seed that they share it with someone, and then that that has the potential to like you know, foster some growth and create new advocates, right? Like have other people feel empowered to lift their voice. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I'm taking that, you know, even you know, ways that we make meaning, right? And we know that the ways we make meaning help promote our connection to vitality. And so a lot of times too, it's you know, there that is a way of making meaning is hey, I can advocate, I can stand up for social justice, whether it's you know, one-on-one with a client, whether it's within your community, with whether it's higher than that, you know, within the state or national, whatever, you know, that that that's a way of connecting with vitality. And so when we're able to even find ways that we can express it, right? And we can put put out that advocacy of social justice, you know, it does then give us a greater connection to vitality, which then helps us keep doing what we're doing and you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I like I'm I can't help but think of I know you were at the All Ohio Counselors Conference, and our our current OCA president Carmilla had talked in her intro to the keynote about like kind of keeping our fires burning and staying lit. And I think like that speaks to that of like that we maybe share that spark with other people and that that's meaning making. And like I this isn't like my personal counseling session, but I just appreciate like what you're saying because I think about you know, even within OCA, I I felt like I had, I don't think trouble is the right word, but I was like, I'm not sure. Like I want to be involved, but I don't know where I want to be involved. And and so, like, I you know, I'm members of other divisions and chapters and things, and I was just like, this isn't it, this isn't it. And when they put the call out for the podcast, I was like, I love media, yeah, let's let's go. And that that was meaning making for me. But it's like something that, like, yeah, I it's a lot of work at times, and that can be stressful, but that like the thing that keeps me going is that it's meaningful, right? Like that that's something I am passionate about and feel like, oh yeah, like this is something I can do. This is a way I can contribute. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, we feel like, and again, I I'll speak for myself because I know I feel this way at times. I mean, there are times not only is you know, maybe do I have a soul crushing day with clients where I'm just feeling really heavy and weighed down by just the stuff they've gone through, but sometimes it can feel very soul crushing to like look at our world, look at our country and see that things are happening. And like, how can we, you know, in my mind, how can I possibly like live in in a world that's like this? You know, how can I keep going when things are so tough, let alone my clients that I'm trying to walk with through their healing journey, you know? And I think too, that piece for me is like the, you know, what can I do? And sure, I could sort of curl up in a ball and just sort of like, well, that's it, you know, I can't do anything else. But often for me, what helps with making some of that meaning and then connecting to vitality is what can I do? You know, and so just like you're talking about, you know, your service to OCA, you know, I've been, you know, I guess a big part of the Ohio Association for Resiliency and Trauma Counseling and starting that. And so, you know, for me, like here's in action, right? Here's me doing something in action to try to be there for our counselors and to advocate and to to help with you know, us being able to sustain our own well-being along with our careers, you know, and be confident and capable to help our clients. And so being able to do that for me, right, creates a ton of meaning and it that sense of purpose that like, okay, I can't I can't maybe change the whole world, right? Obviously, I'm one person, but I can do this work here in this way in this place, and that is helping, and that's creating this this ripple effect, right? That other people can take and then they can can feel like they can keep going and they can keep you know doing what they want to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's important and we need that. We definitely need that. When you think about newer people to the profession, whether they're, you know, newly licensed trainees, still in their grad programs, just getting into the profession profession at this kind of wild time. What kind of words of reassurance or guidance do you think they need most?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh my goodness. I have so much to say about that. So I think that I mean career sustainability starts as students, honestly, and starts as new professionals because often, and there's not great stats on this, but often, I mean, counselors are leaving the profession within the first couple of years, or mental health professionals are leaving the profession, like leaving, leaving within the first couple of years of starting, or there's such high turnover rates. I think on average, new mental health professionals stay within a specific company or organization for maybe max three years. And so, you know, there's a huge vulnerability, I think, for students and for new counselors in that, like I said before, I mean, they're coming in and here's the expectation, you know, it's gonna be this really great, wonderful thing. I'm gonna help people every day and I'm gonna be a part of their healing, and it's gonna be amazing. And oh my gosh, this is gonna be the best, right? And then they get in the reality of it and the work is heavy at times. And there are rewards, but there's not to say there's not rewards, but it's heavy. They're dealing with, you know, the pressure of now I have to maintain a caseload. I have to do paperwork, which is, you know, documentation burden is a real thing. You know, I've got to be in compliance with with my company policies, with insurance company. There's so many things that they're juggling. Plus, they're new and they're supposed to have supervision, right? Like once a week after they've seen like 35 clients or 30 clients. Like that, there's a lot going on, right? And so I think one, understanding, hey, like you are in a like a vulnerable phase developmentally, and that's okay. Like you're gonna struggle with some of these things, and that's okay. Like that's very normal. And like let's help you with like finding ways to get through that, whether it's in internally, you know, you're working just through your own stuff, but also like let's build a sense of community where hopefully your you know clinical supervisor is going to be very like trauma-informed and resiliency-focused and very much like there and partnering with you to help you like learn and grow. And then even with colleagues, right? Building a system of colleagues of like these people I can go to for support and hopefully having an employer who is also supportive, right? Because employers are a big part of career sustainability, right? We've all worked at places that have not been great, let's be honest, you know, and have caused in even more difficulty for us to do the work we need to do. And so, you know, being in a in a work environment that is in alignment with, you know, our core values and that provide the support that we need. I think those are huge, you know, being able to have have those pieces and and not have the expectation, especially for new counselors. Well, you've graduated, so now I'm gonna expect you to operate as if you are a seasoned counselor, right? Yeah. I think we have to adjust our expectations as employers or clinical supervisors to go, okay, they're still really new at this, and we've got to be really mindful of how are we surrounding them with that sort of support and community so that they can continue to be passionate about what they do and not hopefully experience that vicarious trauma. I can remember, I want to say, probably three months, months into my practicum experience, having my first experience with vicarious trauma, where a client told me a story and my brain did the thing that it does, which is that it pictured the entire thing, like vividly pictured it. And like to this day, I still, if that comes up for me, I notice like a physical somatic reaction. And I had no idea that's what that was back then, right? And so I think that's a big piece of it, is that we have a responsibility as seasoned counselors or supervisors to really surround our our students and our our new counselors with that support.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you saying that. I think it's so interesting that when we assess formally or informally with clients about trauma, we talk about witnessing things, right? Like where you all you may not have been a perpetrator, you may have not been a victim, but you might have been a witness to it and acknowledge that that's really, you know, like part of the equation. But then like we're bearing witness to a lot every day, right? Like, and so we don't necessarily always give ourselves the formal or informal assessment of like, hey, what are you witnessing? And that we need community to to support ourselves. Sometimes that comes in the shape of consultation and supervision and things like that, and sometimes it comes in the shape of our own therapy, which like admittedly, like I do, and we just posted an episode about like counselor seeking counseling. And that it that it's something that like, yeah, depending on what where we're at. I remember my internship, I worked in with an IOP like substance group, and it was an amazing experience in so many ways and in transformational in so many ways. But I mean, there are stories to this day, and that was over 10 years ago for me, like that I'm like, I'll never forget them sharing that and like to your point of imagining it. And um, I remember in our internship class, like when we were back on campus, kind of with my other classmates who were in internship. I had confessed that I had had a dream about a client who left the group who like intentionally but like prematurely. Yeah, and generally speaking, that meant you know, they probably had gone back out. And that that was something that like I was really struggling with because that client had been doing so well. And so, like, even some of the situations the client had shared were problematic, but also like losing that client, like not knowing what had happened to them, right? Like, was also as a baby counselor, really a challenge for me. And so, like, you know, now I have maybe tools and have connected those dots differently than I did then. And obviously, we processed it in internship class. I don't want to say it was like minimized, but I think like having had further distance from it, it was like, no, it was just like grieving in a way, and and that showed up in my unconscious movie, even so.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and these are things too that like we don't always identify or pinpoint, right? Is part of the process. Again, it's like I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna help people, and I'm gonna, you know, walk with them in their healing, I'm gonna be a good counselor, but we don't always recognize or identify that like they're the human part, you know, that we've you were talking about before, like we're human and like we are gonna experience things too, and it's you know, grief and loss, but we're gonna experience sometimes those trauma reactions. And even for myself, I mean, I and this is not to be braggy, but I, you know, I consider myself to be like a trauma expert, right? I've been doing this for a long, long, long, long time. And I didn't even recognize that I had experienced vicarious trauma until I started the work on my dissertation, you know, and I started going through, and you know, I knew that there were some things I was experiencing. I'm like, okay, this is probably a little bit like adjacent, but like I could identify identify it with other people and be like, oh yeah, they must be having vicarious trauma, right? And then I started going through it and digging into it and really understanding like what does this mean and how does it look? And I was like, oh, when I walk into a restaurant and I pick this seat that I can see the whole room, you know, my back is not to anybody, that's vicarious trauma, right? If I'm, you know, I don't know, driving over a bridge, and like for some reason my brain just goes, like, what if my car drives off the bridge and it goes in the water and whatever, you know, and I have no intention of that happening, right? But like my brain takes this whole vivid loop. That's vicarious trauma, right? And that's not necessarily connected to like I had a client that had this happen, right? But we become sometimes really hyper-vigilant and don't realize it. And so then it's like this recognition of here are these pieces that have affected me. Oh, this is where this comes from. And that's that's okay, right? It's okay because this is the work we do, it's gonna happen. And then the what do we do about it, right? How do we support each other? How do we support again, students and and new counselors who don't have that experience? So they don't know, they don't have the context to understand it in, right? Whereas we may be being in this for a longer time, we have more context. We can go, oh yeah, that does happen, you know. But when you're new, you're like, I don't understand this, right? Or yeah. I was like, I had a dream about a client. Yeah, no, like this can be like, oh my gosh, what's wrong with you? Maybe you're not equipped for this, maybe you're not confident to do this profession. You probably should get out, right? Like there's a lot of pressure and fear. And I I just want to normalize that, right? That like we're gonna experience those things and to have a support system in place, whether it's within the professional side or even personally, you know, to be able to cope with that. Yeah. And then to go, okay, but this isn't it, right? Like there's more. And so you asked before about vicarious trauma and that idea of vicarious transformation. And what's really cool about this is sure, we're gonna experience things like vicarious trauma, where, you know, my belief about the world being a safe place. Yeah, I don't believe that anymore, right? Yeah, like that's vicarious trauma. I don't believe that. But what has happened is that I've I've expanded my perception. And so I can say, yeah, I don't think that the world is a safe place, but I do know that I can make this part of my world safe, right? Yeah, or I can create safety in this way so that I feel safe in this world. And I wouldn't have been able to do that, right? Had I not been in this work, had I not been a counselor. I mean, maybe I could have gotten there, but I think doing this work has helped me really shift and expand my beliefs and expand my perception, or, you know, the world is all good or all bad, right? We always want to be in these dichotomies. Well, for me now, like the world is good and bad. And ultimately, I just want to be a part of helping things be good in this world, you know? And so I think that's a piece of it, right? Is that, you know, yes, we might have these really challenging negative aspects that that we're dealing with. And, you know, because of what the those this work that I've done, you know, I'm able to have so much more compassion and empathy for people. I'm able to understand how something gets from point A to point B to point C much in much more context than I could ever, and and understand it in a non-judgmental way, right? Like it has enhanced my ability not only to be a good counselor, but to be like a good human, you know? And even valuing like, you know, the the positive things that are in my life, right? Or knowing that if I'm going through a tough time in my personal life, that like I can get through it. Like there are so many aspects of that for me that you know, yeah when I look at my growth as a as a counselor and personally, like I've had so much growth because of the work we've done, and that has shifted to transformation for me. And not that it owns trouble, right? But that my perspective of that is so much bigger, right? It's it's so much more holistic now. And that really benefits me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. You got my wheels spinning, Alicia. I keep thinking of all these like things where I'm like, yep, and we get to like speaking of like witnessing and things like that, we get to bear witness to like growth of others and like like celebration things. Like I think of times that I've cried with clients because I am maybe more of a sentimental person and I'm not like weeping, but like I get tyrided a lot, like especially when I like something positive has happened for clients and like news that they share with me, and I and like maybe I'm not expecting it and being like, oh my gosh, and like good thing I have my tissues here at my desk because I'm like having to blot my my eyes, like someone cutting onions in here, because we we get to witness those things as well, and that that can be really transformative, especially knowing the that good and bad that that maybe exist in mutuality.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I for me it is such an honor and such a privilege to do this work, even with all the difficult stuff, the heavy stuff, like to be able to sit with my client and and watch them go from this point where I don't know that I can ever get through this. I don't think I can ever heal. And to watch them go from there to like they've written their college application. And now they want to be a counselor, you know. Like, talk about tearing up in a session, right? Like you're just like, or for me, I'm just like, oh my goodness, like what an honor to be able to walk with somebody through the most painful things they've ever been through that have created so much maybe darkness for their their themselves within themselves, right? In their lives. And to see them go from that point to going to like, hey, yes, this thing has affected me. And obviously it has, you know, shifted and changed the the direction of my life, but also I know who I am now and I know what I can do, and I know that I can keep healing and I can keep moving forward. And, you know, for me, a lot of times when I come back to how do I connect with vitality, it's remembering how privileged and how honored I feel that people trust me with that, you know, and allow me to come on that journey with them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. As like more seasoned professionals and supervisors, leaders in the field, like how do you think we can create more of that culture of sustainability versus like a culture where there's a lot of self-sacrifice and a lack of self-care?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I it always starts with in inside, right? Inside of us. It always starts there with one, I mean, again, recognizing and being aware of, you know, where am I at, and then being aware of like how can I then put that out there, right? You know, so for myself, right? Like now I'm on this thing where like if I'm presenting at a conference or if I'm teaching in a class or if I'm supervising or if I'm talking to a friend, you know, even a friend, like there are many times that I'm just talking about this stuff of like, hey, you know, either I, you know, I'm looking for that, that, that sort of listening ear, or I'm even just sharing. Like, here's where I'm experiencing, you know, my ability to keep going, my ability to be excited and passionate. And I, you know, I think there's an element of that too, of we we are creating communities and spaces for that. You know, I think we talk a lot about, and the research talks a lot about vicarious trauma and burnout and all the bad things, right? Oh, here's, you know, you're gonna feel if you hear someone's trauma story, you're gonna feel this way. Or if you're dealing with a client in this, you're gonna feel anger and depression and sadness and hopelessness and blah blah, you know, all the things, right? And yes, yes, that's true. But we don't always talk about, and there's very little research about things like vicarious post-traumatic growth and meaning making and the positive aspects of doing the work that we do. And I think that we create communities and spaces where we really talk about that. Hey, we're gonna talk about both. And we're gonna talk about like what do you need in this moment or what do we need in this moment collectively to get through and to be, you know, looking at both sides of it.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Yeah. And the meaning making is so personal, but it's important as a person. What are maybe some of the practices, whether they're clinical, spiritual, relational, reflective, help you stay connected to your own meaning as a counselor? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, that's a that's a big question. You know, I think about like as a whole, you know, like we talked a lot about things like, you know, aligning with core values, having a support system personally and professionally, you know, being aware of what's happening, you know, internally, you know, being aware of that kind of stuff. Also using coping skills, right? I think coping skills help as well. You know, these are all kinds of things that like the that will help us with meaning making. But I also think too, it's it's being intentional, right? Like, what gives me meaning? Does that thing that gave me meaning five years ago still give me meaning? Is it still helping or has it shifted, right? Has it evolved into something else? And I think sometimes, maybe for me, you know, my meaning making is sometimes connected to my well-being, right? Like, yeah, not just wellness, because we, you know, wellness becomes this has become this word, right? That is very like, oh wellness, I'll take like a bubble bath with rose petals and you know, whatever and it's gonna be so great. Like I did wellness today. And so, and and that actually sounds amazing, I'll be honest. I would love if that was what I could do every day to feel good. I mean, two thumbs up. So I'm not, you know, saying that's bad. We're not trashing it, we're just saying it extends beyond that. Like, you know, I think when we think about well-being, our own well-being, right? Like if I'm in a space where I'm able, you know, to feel okay, right? Or cope through things that are difficult. And, you know, whether it's doing things that I enjoy, whether it's spending time with my family or my friends, whether it's doing my the work that I'm doing, you know, I think there are aspects of meaning-making that if if my well-being is is I'm sustaining that, then that's helping me continue to make meaning of what I'm doing. When I'm not doing so great with my well-being, right, that obviously goes down some, it becomes a barrier. And so, you know, I do think that when people are able to kind of think about it in that way, and then what can I do to promote my well-being, then that sort of folds into then being able to make meaning a little easier.
SPEAKER_01:I like that. Yeah. Making it like personal, not just about the meaning, but personal about like how are we tending to ourselves? Yeah. For counselors who might sort of feel like, you know, I'm about ready to check out, like in terms of this profession, I'm at the end of my rope. Like, what's maybe one reframe that that you would offer them so that they could know more about like their resilience, their impact, their worth?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Wow. I feel like that would be like a whole, that would be a whole lot of stuff. I mean, I think the first thing I would be want to say would be like, don't do it. Wait, hold on. Just not push yourself more, but like, let's pause. Let's do it, let's have a pause and let's really reflect on, you know, what are the things that are causing you to feel that way? Like what are these barriers that are being presented to you right now? And I'm I'm very much a problem solver. And so when I think about career sustainability, I think about, okay, there's so many levels. There's the individual, there's the you know, smaller circle, there's a bigger circle as a system, you know. And so I think about, okay, many things for me, I feel like we can figure out a workaround, right? Well, if one of the barriers, and you're saying I want to be out of this, I'm done, and you identify, well, a barrier that I have is that I'm in a work environment that has really high productivity and and documentation expectations, and that's killing me right now, like, you know, figuratively. Well, let's talk about that. So, do we need to maybe shift the environment? Do we need to shift the the the where you're at, you know? And then does doing that, does that help you with feeling like I can get back to why I'm doing this work? I can get back to that passion and that connection to vitality. Or maybe it's like, you know, they're feeling burnt out and it's, you know, well, hey, we've just discovered you're seeing 30 clients a week. That's a lot of clients a week, right? That's probably more than full time if we're really being honest in terms of I don't see 30 clients a week either. I think that has helped me be sustainable because that's a lot of people. But again, you know, there are people that do that, and some people can handle that, but it, you know, there's no right or wrong necessarily. But if they're saying I'm seeing 30 clients a week and I'm feeling really burnt out, I'm really like stressed, I'm really tired, I'm gonna go, hey, so do we need to see 30 clients a week, or is it possible to shift a little bit? Like, would lessening that caseload help you feel like you can keep doing the work? Because I always feel like there's there's something that's happening right within there, within that work, that if we can identify and address the specifics of what is causing you to feel this way, and then we can maybe address those and and fix those, that maybe helps. And then comment to that, I think preventative stuff too. Like before we get to a point where we're feeling so much vicarious trauma that we can't function, or so much burnout that we can't function, that we're identifying it early and implementing supports early, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I'm like in my head, I'm thinking of my own personal experiences too, of like just like the evolution we have. Like, I also remember, and for many reasons now, I'm not like this, but as a newer counselor, feeling like the need to document more. Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, I wrote books. Why was I doing that?
SPEAKER_01:And that but that like right, that contributes to some of that too, because if I'm seeing 30 people a week and having feeling the need to document so much that like that we're maybe, you know, we're we're thinking like, okay, if that's a common theme amongst New York counselors, what can we do to maybe whether it's in grad programs or just in like workshops and things like help you manage that differently, right? Like give you the tools to know, like, this is what I need to document, like to be compliant, right? Okay, we could do that without having to like maybe burn out in the same ways.
SPEAKER_00:So and interestingly, I mean, one of when you look at the research, and even like when I did my own research, like the majority of the people that felt that burnout didn't necessarily feel a burnout from the direct work with clients. The majority of them felt burnout because of the administrative tasks, because of the employer expectations, because of the insurance-driven care. I mean, there it was it for the most part, the the majority of people feel in the burnout was because of those things. And so I think systemically, if we can address that, you know, and yeah, we get into it because we like working with people.
SPEAKER_01:It's the other stuff that maybe is like challenging, not impossible, but like can we reduce those barriers or create better systems for them?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah. So it's kind of top-down too. Like, sure, individually there are things that we should be doing and can be doing, and that even, you know, or we're just supporting students and new counselors, but I think systemically we've got to continue to shift and change and make things more conducive to continue to keep people in our profession. Because again, we have a huge shortage, you know, like there are not enough of us in general, and that's not okay, especially in this day and age.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we need more. If you're thinking about counselors in Ohio specifically, who maybe are really feeling overwhelmed, stretched thin because of these shortages, and really questioning their capacity at this moment. What kind of final message of hope do you want them to carry into the rest of this year and the new year?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I I think there's always hope. And maybe that's partly what helps me keep doing the work too, is I just really believe that there is always hope. And so that's just first of all, is that there's always hope. There's always something. And, you know, if what's happening right now for somebody isn't working, that's okay, right? That makes sense based on the things that we've talked about today, right? It makes complete sense when things aren't working. And, you know, I would encourage people to, you know, not only try to figure out are there workarounds, right? Is there a way for me to continue to do what I'm passionate about, you know, but in maybe a different way or to be be creative in that? But I would also just encourage that that stepping back and looking at, you know, again, vitality. How can I connect with vitality? Are there things that are becoming barriers for me to connecting? Because I think if if we're able to connect with the vitality and we're able to really lean into that, then the challenges that we experience become more manageable. They become things we feel like we can figure out a way through.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. There's always hope. So for those of you who listened, you knew this question was coming. If this is your first time listening, we ask this question to every guest. The name of the podcast is called Ohio Counseling Conversations. And so, whether it's related to what you've shared today or maybe something different, what important conversations do you think counseling professionals should be having with each other andor their clients in our state?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I I mean, again, I I think it just continues to go back to the how do we create community, you know, whether it's with you know, amongst ourselves, how do we create community around the things that are challenging, but also in the ways that sort of lift each other up and build each other up. And ultimately that that trickles down to our clients as well, right? You know, that if we are connected to vitality, if we're able to maintain our well-being, maintain our career sustainability, ultimately that that goes and benefits our clients. It benefits the profession as a whole. And so I think it's that you know, building that sense of community and really being able to support each other, you know, through that work is that we can keep down what we're passionate about.
SPEAKER_01:There's a ripple effect, but like it starts with community. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Can I ask one last question, kind of to to piggyback off of this? Is like what communities do have you found personally like helpful?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's a great question. I definitely I have I have a set of colleagues who are also, I mean, they've become very good friends. And so they're people that I can definitely go to when I'm like, I'm having a heavy day, or even to celebrate things, right? There's times that I'll be like, oh my goodness, like this really cool thing happened today. And you know, they just having them celebrate me with this with me is really like fulfilling. And, you know, I mentioned before about with the Ohio Association for Resiliency and Trauma Counseling. I think that has been a big aspect for me of being able to not only put what I'm passionate about into action, but we've been building this sort of sense of community and helping, you know, counselors be able to feel equipped and competent to do this heavy work, but also, you know, focusing on some of that well-being and resiliency, you know, and that has been kind of a cool thing to see grow and to see how people have been connecting with each other within that that division too. And obviously OCA, a little plug for OCA as well. I feel like it's definitely been in my community for a long time. So probably actually since I was a master's student.
SPEAKER_01:So same, yeah. And I like I I know that maybe not everyone listening is a member of OCA, and certainly soft plug, like there is value in that because of these other communities. And I've I've found that incredibly helpful when I need a consultation or when I need to feel less isolated. That that's been really powerful. I always feel like the All Ohio Counselors Conference, I like liken it to summer camp. Yes, because I'm like, oh, I get to see my community like once a year and like get to you know learn, but also like have this connection in the community that I might have a lot virtually throughout the year, but that that we get to spend some of that time together. So I also find it valuable. But I appreciate you sharing your own personal experiences and giving this message of hope because I think right now it is so needed. So, Alicia, thank you so much for joining us today and being here. And thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Thanks for tuning in to Ohio Counseling Conversations, the official podcast of the Ohio Counsel Association. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a colleague. To learn more about the Ohio Counsel Association and how to get involved, visit OhioCounseling.org or find us on our socials linked in the show notes. Until next time, take care and keep showing up for the work and conversations that matter.