Ohio Counseling Conversations

Let's Unpack That #6: Unpack or Put it Back - Rules to Bend, Break, or Follow

• Ohio Counseling Association

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We play Unpack or Put It Back to test “therapy rules” against context, ethics and real human needs. From snacks and coffee tables to hugs, swearing and self disclosure, we explain how intention and relationship guide what helps and what harms.

• modeling self care with snacks and breaks 
• room design signals safety and collaboration 
• measured praise that scaffolds internal validation 
• nuanced boundaries around hugs and comfort 
• swearing as authentic language, not aggression 
• thoughtful self disclosure to reduce shame 
• accepting nominal gifts without role confusion 
• authentic presence over blank slate posturing 
• purposeful note taking and client preferences 
• relatable dress to soften power dynamics 
• movement sessions with informed consent 
• clear CTA to keep the conversation going

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If it sparks something for you, share it with a colleague or drop us a line. We’d love to keep the conversation going.

What do you think? Send us your questions or topics you'd like us to unpack!

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If you’re a counselor in Ohio and would like to get involved as part of production or as a guest, or know someone who might be interested, please email us at ohiocounselingconversations@gmail.com!

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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee

·Hosted by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier

·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill and Victoria Frazier

·Editing by Leah Wood & Marisa Cargill

·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Let's Unpack That, a short form segment from Ohio Counseling Conversations, where we dig into the topics, tools, and truths that shape our work as counselors. Whether it's a trending issue, a clinical insight, or something we've all been thinking about, we're here to process it together. Welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations. Let's unpack that. Today we are going to do a whole episode of a game you've heard us play, unpack or put it back. And this episode is really inspired by TikTok trends that we've noticed where counselors are debating what really belongs in counseling sessions with rules that they break or rules that they follow as a counselor. And we're just gonna throw out a topic and each of us will decide do we unpack it or lovingly put it back on the shelf? I'm your host, Marissa Cargill. And I'm Victoria Fraser. Let's jump in. Okay, so Tori, first on the list, eating and session, unpack or put it back.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like this is gonna be our catchphrase, but it depends. I think if you're having like a full fork and knife meal, that's really different to like having pretzels.

SPEAKER_00:

Correct. Yeah, like it depends on so yes, to like unpack if it's a snack or something, put it back if it's like dining.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, especially because a lot of my clients come straight from school or work, and so they're hungry when they get here. And sometimes they feel really awkward. And so if they're eating, and if eating is something that's challenging for them, or just like if they have anxiety and they don't want to be disruptive, or if we're working on like people-pleasing behaviors, I sometimes will eat with them, and I keep like goldfish or pretzels, and those are I keep those for my clients too in my office, but I think it helps kind of destigmatize eating if that is something that they have like some struggles with, and I think also it just like helps us feel more comfortable, like that's something we do to connect with other people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. I say unpack too. I think part of me it's about like modeling if I'm saying like we need to tend to ourselves if some like a goal that we're working on is that like we need to do what's in our own best self-interest at times. It's like, well, then like sometimes you need a snack, and like there are times where maybe I've just had a lot of back-to-back appointments or something, and I'm like starving to the point where I know I'm gonna like feel or hear my stomach growl, whether or not my clients can, you know. Thankfully, I'm in telhealth, so sometimes that's not as noticeable through a computer screen, but I usually will just like acknowledge, like or ask and and consider like what it is that I'm eating. Like I'm not sitting down and like having like you know, a sub sandwich here, but I might bring some pretzels or you know, even just like a cookie or something, like where I can pick it apart piece by piece, like it's just something that I can make sure that I'm nourishing my body somehow.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. I am kind of imagining you eating a full like sub-way swap, like sub. I just feel like is this okay? Like you're in a cartoon or something, like and you know what?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, I feel like I could make the case where like that's appropriate if like you were working on like you said, like if if people have like struggle eating, and sometimes like eating a meal, there couldn't be a case where that's appropriate, but just in general, I think it's like okay, I'm just acknowledging like I'm a human who has needs and like it's important to show those, and like that it also maybe just helps me stay focused. Like, if I'm not if I'm starving and my stomach's growling, then I'm I might struggle being more present. And so like I think I acknowledge like hey, like that's gonna help me do this, this work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Not to like skip ahead, but I think that about like bathroom breaks too, like either like saying, like, hey, I'm so sorry, I have to run to the restroom, or starting a couple minutes late because I have to use the restroom. I just know like if I'm uncomfortable physically, I won't be able to be there with them as fully as I would like to or need to sometimes. And so I will I will pause or take that couple minutes. And I also think it's important that like clients know that that's their time, and if they need to go to the bathroom, like yeah, don't just like get up and run out of the room or something. Like, I'll think something's wrong. But if you need a break or if you need a second, like of course, like let's take care of ourselves. I don't, yeah. I I like of course punctuality and professionalism is so important, but I just yeah, I think it's we need to take care of ourselves.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, everyone. It's something like obviously you want to be really intentional with it, but that like it can actually be really meaningful if it's disrupting something or like it's uncomfortable, like because I I generally do try to ask, like I want to make sure, like, hey, you know, I haven't had a chance to have a break yet, and so like is it okay if I eat this snack while while we're working together today? But that like, you know, that it that someone feels comfortable with that. Most of the time, you know, that's not something I'm gonna be doing like in an intake. Sure. But with someone who I have a relationship with, I think it's definitely unpacked. So it's never simple, yes or no, but maybe uh about the why behind it, it sounds like yeah. Now, this next one to me is so interesting and fascinating as a counselor educator. I feel like when I see some of these TikTok trends, I'm like, have I taught that to people? Have I said that? And I feel like in some of them I haven't said that exact thing, but I've said something like similar. And so what I found really interesting is that I saw someone specifically that they were talking about coffee tables in therapy rooms, and so like fascinating again, as many many of our listeners know, like I do full-time telehealth now, so I'm not doing any in-person services, but I know like when I would teach like counseling techniques and things like that, I would be really intentional about asking students not to put like a table or a desk in between them and their client, like if we were doing some exercises in the classrooms, that I wanted them to be facing each other without any like physical barriers. So I think coffee tables kind of blur that line a little bit. But like, what's your take? Unpack, put it back.

SPEAKER_01:

I honestly, when I thought about that, like that from from my master's program like came into my head like don't have anything in between because it can signal like you're closed off or it can make connection hard. But I started thinking about just like the practicality of having a coffee table in my room would be so nice. Yeah, like I have a table to the side of the couch, but most of my people sit in the middle of the couch, and so that coffee table's or the the side table's far away. And with my kids, like it would be so nice to have a surface to play Uno on, or color, or just for my for my people who bring a snack or a drink, like to have somewhere to set their stuff that's convenient, or like the number of times my people have lost their phone in the couch is not nothing, yeah. And so I think like practically, as aside from like the ethical implications of a coffee table, I just I was like, Oh, do I get a coffee table? I don't know that my office is big enough for a coffee table, like as it's arranged now, but I was kind of like into the idea of having a coffee table.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I lean more into the unpack over putting it back because I think it's one of the things that I think when I think about like physical barriers is like as a desk, it's like cutting me off midway, like where it it does like to me represent a little bit more clear being closed off where a coffee table is a lower boundary. So, like to me, also even as like a physical barrier, it doesn't feel so much as a barrier, like it's present, but it's not like disruptive, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I think one of the other things I think about with desk is that it makes it feel like a meeting, like they're in trouble or they're like talking to their boss, and I think the coffee table is a a very different vibe to that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I I think like to your point, it's it's helpful and could be like even offering those opportunities to connect differently. Because I also think of just like take coffee table out of the context of a therapy space, like just you know, like growing up, like sitting around a coffee table, like as a kid playing at the coffee table, or you know, like the tables feel more like gathering where like a desk isn't so much that. And so I don't know, like maybe that's just my own perception, but I'm I'm more open to that one than like a desk, like in between you and a client. So definitely feel like that could be really helpful and powerful in the physical spaces, which kind of makes me sad. I'm not in physical spaces with clients anymore, but that's okay. You know, it affects our feelings, even if it's an in an inanimate object, it can affect comfort and maybe even like create like a coziness that would feel like a little more vagin otherwise. What about this is one of my favorites because I feel like my stance on this has evolved, but saying to a client I'm proud of you or giving them some kind of praise. Unpacked.

SPEAKER_01:

I want to hear about this evolution.

SPEAKER_00:

What what changed? I think you know, like as a baby counselor, you're following rules that that like maybe you haven't unpacked, you know, pun intended enough for yourself, where um I think it was always something where like I've been cautious of saying congratulations as an educator, I would always caution clients or clients, students, from like congratulating clients on certain things. Because while it might be something that socially we congratulate people for, like is it something like if that's what they're there for, is it something that maybe they want congratulations for? Maybe they're feeling like awful. Like, you know, a lot of the mock sessions and techniques class, it would just be like the stress of grad school. And so someone would say they were in grad school, and then their counselor would congratulate them. But if grad school is a stressor, it's like, yes, congratulations. And maybe it was like thinking too much about it, but I think it's like sometimes we have to pause and and wait to learn more before we kind of give that feedback. But the I'm proud of you, I think it was just more like where the where it comes from is I think like there was this idea that we want them to feel empowered so we shouldn't praise them. Like we should want them to like be proud of themselves. And I think like when the intention, it means well, right? But my evolution is that like we especially in like a relational mindset, heal in relationships, and it's okay to tell someone that you're proud of them, and it might be really powerful for them to hear it and empower them to consider that like they are proud of themselves. So I will say that when I say it to clients, I also will usually encourage that like I hope you like see that too. Like, I want you to be like feel like proud of that as well. But like I think it's it's important for us to maybe hold up that mirror, and it's okay because maybe that in relationship with any human being is really meaningful for them. Yeah. But I think I was afraid of saying it before, like it was wrong. Like it was like, no, they need to, like, they need to say it, or like the I'm not supposed to say it because I should just say I want you to be proud of yourself, kind of thing. Like, not you don't need me to say it.

SPEAKER_01:

Sometimes I'll even I'm also sometimes I will tell clients I'm proud of them if it's something they've been working really hard on, or like this has been a long time coming, or I know they're feeling positively about it. And I and and I'll acknowledge to clients sometimes, like, hey, you know, technically we're kind of taught not to do this, but I think it's really important for you to hear this from someone outside of yourself. And I disclaimer don't know that this is true, but hypothetically, when you build a house, you put external support on it first before you build the internal structure of the house. Like, that's why they have those like diagonal planks of wood outside of walls when you're building houses. And I think that sometimes it's our job to like be the external support while they're building their internal support. And so obviously, we have to make sure that like we're being mindful of how often we're doing that and we're not centering how we feel about it for them, but I think it's really important they get like that external, like, good job. Because we we I love social learning theory, and I think you only know you're funny if people laugh at your jokes. And so, how are you meant to know you're doing a good job or like you're working towards what can sometimes be a really abstract goal in counseling, unless the person you trust and your expert on the subject tells you, like, yeah, this is going well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's like one of those situations where we want to make sure we're still like decentering our opinion about it, but at the same time, like I think there's part of us that like we don't want to deny the humanity of like, hey, it's okay to appreciate or enjoy external validation. We don't want to live and breathe by it, right? Like, we can't only like live for the applause. But that's it's okay to enjoy it. Like, that's okay to appreciate and enjoy like external validation. We want to build like the supports so there's internal validation too. But yeah, I I wholeheartedly am with you on that. I think what's helpful is like sometimes we need to learn like the stricter rules so that we can experiment with like okay, now it's okay for me to tell someone this, and it's important that I have a relationship with them, and it's important that I know that this isn't going that they're going to be seeking my approval and stuff like that. That we have to have some some foundation before maybe we can do that, but it's important. So, you know, maybe it's also like you worked really hard for that, and I want to like acknowledge that. Like, I want to acknowledge your progress. Another one, and I feel like Tori, you might have a a good take on this, especially because you work primarily with like with younger people, and so I think it's a little different. And honestly, I don't have much of an opinion because of the telehealth stuff. But what about hugs in therapy?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, this is uh yeah, I am not I'm a very huggy person, like at like as a human being, but when I'm in my office and like when I'm working, I'm not a super big like hug for clients kind of person, just because especially with the littles, like I think those boundaries are really important, and like as much as I enjoy my clients, I'm not their friend, and I think that that is something that's really hard because with the kids you do want to make such a strong bond and you want to have things in common and and make sure that they know like you're on their level and you're trying to be as egalitarian as possible, but at the same time, like that can get muddled. There, I can count, I think, on my hand of the number of times I've hugged a client and I've never initiated a hug either. It's usually been someone under seven who's having a really big like emotional moment and they're feeling really scared, and they just kind of go for it. And I think it would at that point it would be so damaging for me not to respond to them because they are being so vulnerable. And I think that that is so innate. I think when you're older, we can talk about ways to do some of that self-soothing, but I think that's really high level for a little brain, and that's hard. I do keep I keep a really big squish mallow in my office that looks like a dumpling. And his name is Timothy, and Timothy is kind of my hug proxy. Like I'll have them hug Timothy. The only other time I've hugged a client is sometimes at termination sessions. Clients will ask for a hug, and I think that like that to me is okay. That's my other kind of exception.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. With telehealth, I obviously can't hug anyone, so that makes the decision for me pretty easy. But like, yeah, in former roles and things like that, termination I think was probably the most common reason I might like give someone a hug. But generally speaking, it was more like they wanted, you know, can I give you a hug? And it's like, yeah, like but wasn't maybe like a regular occurrence within the the counseling relationship. And I breaking one of the other rules. I think like when I worked in a college setting was hard as like the the physical space was that oftentimes there was a desk. And so there was like a physical barrier sometimes within that. That was like literally not the physical space to have a separate um situation where I could go move to a chair or put them on a couch where we were more in like a very sterile type setting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I tried to make it as cozy as I could within those parameters for what it's worth. And but you know, that that kind of I think prevented even like some of the other situations where a hug might come up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think it it was really hard for me at first to say no. And then I talked with like my supervisor and a couple of my friends in my program, and we talked about how it's good to model those boundaries if you are saying no and saying and and explaining it to them like this is why it's not you know boundaries. Practice really to do hugs and providing them alternatives, but I think it's so important to know what you're comfortable with as a clinician. And like maybe there are clinicians who feel really comfortable with that, and that that's something that they they they really think is helpful. And I I don't think it's like a hard no, especially with like if we think about intersecting identities and cultural norms and things like that. Like some cultures just are more like touch focused, and that's more casual. And so I think there's always like space for that, yeah, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So we put some calls out on social media, and some other folks like maybe shared some comments of some of the other maybe hot takes or rules that might be more commonly broken or like adjusted, depending on like the the context. So a couple more, and we can kind of go rapid rapid fire with like unpack or put it back and a quick explanation, but swearing in sessions, unpack or put it back.

SPEAKER_01:

Unpack a million percent. I think it makes it like humanizes you so much, it makes clients feel comfortable expressing themselves however they want. I think there's a difference between them swearing to you versus at you. Like I don't want anyone to call me a swear word, but if you need to swear to express yourself, I think that's fine. I think it's fine.

SPEAKER_00:

And I like I waffle, I think on my stance with this, but like yes, typically unpack. I used to think like, oh I'll wait until they swear, and then I will like let them know, like, oh, I swear too, and like that's fine, and like now we can swear together. But I think sometimes, and obviously I'm not trying to swear at my clients either, like in in the opposite direction, but that like if they've expressed something and it kind of is almost like, I feel like, you know, I can sense that like this is something that feels, you know, like I want to let it out. I might be like, you know, let's drop a WTH or or whatever to let them know like it's okay here. It's and like if that's helpful, because a lot of people will apologize when they swear. And and I mean, I think that's to the degree you feel comfortable as a counselor too, but like to me it's it's their safe space, and so like they should feel comfortable doing that. I don't want to offend anyone. So try to be really conscious of of when and where and how it comes up, but like if I'm getting the sense that it it's fine, I might model like, hey, yeah, you can be as comfortable as you want. Like, we don't have to put on that, like that mask of like, you know, not using language that we would typically use outside of session. So generally speaking, unpack, I'm sure there are some some exceptions. How about like beyond hugs, like comforting clients? And I know that we talked a lot about this in like the first episode of Let's Unpack That with the Tissue Issue, but just like comforting clients in general, whether that be like with a word, a tissue, a hug, I don't know. Are there some strong feelings? Unpack. Yeah, same. Yeah. I think like when we think consider like that we are modeling relationships for people, that it's helpful to offer them like the humanity we would want them to feel to maybe get more comfortable accepting or to show them that like the people can offer that, even if that's not something that they're familiar with, that that that's helpful. This one feels very, I don't know, like pop culture-y, which I appreciate as someone who just loves media, but saying like same to clients, like if if you relate and you're like, yeah, I get that, you know, instead of how do you feel? Like as a means of like self-disclosure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think I think just I'm I use so much like feminist theory in how I approach counselors, and I think self-disclosure can be such a valuable tool as long as we're, you know, centering the client and considering why that self-disclosure would be useful in the moment. I think it's so helpful. Like, especially when I have I have like a case subsection on my caseload of adults with OCD, especially ones who it was undiagnosed for quite a long time, and self-disclosure with them are like, yeah, I've had an intrusive thought that sounds like that, can be so revolutionary because it it's such a like the call is coming from inside the house. Yeah. And so I think it can it it makes it less scary. I think it humanizes it. I think it can provide opportunities for laughter and yeah, big big fan within reason.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's one of those I saw some someone on TikTok and I wish I could remember. I think her name was Lauren. If I can tag her, I'll tag her in our show notes. But she was saying, like talking about how she was grateful that she learned the strict rules ahead of time, right? Like, hey, we're not supposed to self-disclose unless it's really to the client's benefit. But that like now is more comfortable with self-disclosure because like yes, I can disclose more and it can still only to be to the benefit of the client. Like it was a skill that's like, hey, use sparingly, use sparingly, because baby counselors maybe need like some strict rules so that they know, like, and then they can reflect and be really intentional and thoughtful when they begin to use them. And when she was speaking about it, she was talking about like comparing it to like learning math or something, and it was a really good comparison that she made. I'm not gonna but m math is no no, thank you. I was thinking about like and this is maybe really a bad comparison, but like when you're learning how to drive, right? And you learn all the rules and it's 10 and 2, and you like really try to like do all of these things, and like I'm not gonna say I don't hold my hands at 10 and 2 ever, but like I'm a little bit more relaxed at the wheel now. And I felt like that was like a really good way to think about how self-disclosure, and maybe some of these other roles even have evolved over time, like in my own professional like journey. That like, okay, I'm still doing it for the same reason and I'm still kind of staying within the right parameters, but I'm able to use this skill more frequently, but like to humanize myself, like and make that like a more equitable relationship, like that the power differential is less. I I really like that one. I know I said let's be brief with these, and then I go into a whole dissertation on that one. But all right, next one accepting gifts from clients, unpack or put it back.

SPEAKER_01:

I think cautiously unpack. I think obviously let's not be taking Lamborghinis, but if it's a cookie or a beverage or something, like I think that's really different. And like with my kids, sometimes they'll bring me like a flower they picked or like a drawing they made me, or like I have I have a I have a kid, she's so sweet, she for her birthday she wants to give other people presents, and so like for her birthday every year she has a white elephant gift exchange with her friends, and so like that's something that's really important to her. And I I always think about like is this gonna hurt their feelings? Is this gonna damage their relationship? And also, like, I think I this is just natural to me would always go, Oh, you didn't have to do that, are you sure? And like giving, I don't think they're ever, I don't I don't know, I've never had anyone be like, oh, actually never mind, but I think giving them that consideration and that opportunity to reflect is and I also think like I break the opposite rule a little bit. If I like I give my kids stickers at the end of their session just because it's they had to focus for a long time, or they like to take them home and show their their parents or their siblings, or some of them have little like sticker passports that we use to write down something, like we learned something new that day, they'll pick a sticker that goes with the the skill. And so I kind of break the opposite. I mean, I'm not giving away like yeah, you know, I'm not bribing people with anything, but just like to help them remember or commemorate, I I think that's lovely, or I'll bring like someone a sucker on their birthday or something like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I I think same, like, yeah, we want to like stay within our ethical confines and and whatnot. But like part of that is would it do damage to the relationship if I decline, like, right? And so given if it's nominal, like we probably benefit from like accepting that because it was done with like good intention and like meaning behind it. And so a lot of times, you know, it would jeopardize the stability of the relationship if we weren't willing, because that could be really hurtful. You know, obviously if it's something that's a little bit beyond nominal, then we have to, you know, maybe have a conversation with them about why it's not appropriate to accept. But I think in most cases, you know, they're people kind of gather like that they're not gonna be bringing us, you know, sports cars or, you know, high-end anything. It's more from the heart, and that's the the important part when we consider whether we accept it. And I think to your point, giving gifts at times is is meaningful and it still has to stay within those confines of like being nominal, but that that that's sort of it kind of harkens to the I'm proud of you thing that we want people to be self be celebrated, feel celebrated. Blank slate therapists unpack or put it back?

SPEAKER_01:

Put put it unpack the farthest. Like I think for me, if when I'm a client, if I say something that was really hurtful or something really scary that happened to me, and I get nothing in return, I feel like I'm being dramatic. Yeah. And I also think like some of my clients have have people who don't understand in their life, and they get that blank slight response at home. And I think it's so invalidating, and I think like obviously I'm very humanistic, and like I don't think I can show up as anyone but who I am, and I have a face journey when someone tells me they dropped a piece of pizza on the ground. I look like I've discovered a horrific accident, and so I think when I started, I tried to be very blank sleep, and it felt so inauthentic to me. And I was thinking so much about what my face was doing and not what was happening, and I've never had a client say anything to me about my face other than thank you, thank you, because that's how I felt.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm gonna hit you with the favorite answers, but it depends because I think certain people respond well to like certain things, and so I think for me, I I am an expressive person, but sometimes I might be a slower responder when I'm with clients because I am like waiting to hear all of it before I can figure out what my reaction is, right? Yeah, because I don't want to be so expressive where they like they it shuts them down, and so I think sometimes I like do hold back a little bit, not because I don't want to give an authentic response, like I my eye, you know, like I'm I might like keep part of my face a little bit more blank, and but my eyes might be like wide, you know, like okay, I'm still listening, like keep going, but I don't want to have like the rest of my reaction until I have heard what else they have to say. So I wouldn't say blank, but I I I try to at least kind of be conscious of it when I can, which again in telehealth maybe is a weirder thing to be kind of attuned to because I see my face, you know. Yeah, I still try to make it the smaller square, right? But like I can still tell, like, what kind of face am I giving this person in response to what they're saying? So I'm I guess I'm like monitoring myself a little bit more, but not because I don't want an authentic reaction, but because I think like sometimes I just don't want to disrupt the flow in the moment.

SPEAKER_01:

No, that's a good point. I think my reactions are so silent and I'm nodding like while I'm doing them, and so there's always this signal of like keep talking. Yes. Like, you know, I think if it was if if it became intrusive where like a client would stop their story or you know, like like if it became disruptive, obviously that's different, but yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you know, like I think like sometimes there could be cause for interrupting it to be like, wait, hold on a second, you're telling me this happened? Like, I I get it, and I think like everything is nuanced, but I would say like not blank, but not maybe like the fullest expression, depending on the circumstance. Okay, two more. Um, actually, no, a few more. I can't count. This one, I felt like I had a strong stance as a counselor educator, but taking notes in session, unpack or put it back.

SPEAKER_01:

I halfway. I take notes with my grown-ups because I'm a computer and session person, which I was never when I was in my master's program in like my first year of practice. But just concurrent note-taking really saves lives. And so, like, for me, just I have when I go home, I try to be really strict with myself about not taking work out and thinking about clients, and so but with my kids, like if we're in the sand tray or we're playing Barbie or you know, we're like that, obviously I can't take notes. I'll like scratch notes after, but I really think it depends. Or if I I've had people before who who who worry a lot about what I'm writing, and so for those clients I don't take notes, so I think it really depends, but most of the time if I can get away with it, and I will say I put it's it's I I put my computer to the side and it's on a pillow, so it feels very cash when I do it. But yeah, that's where I'm at. What about you?

SPEAKER_00:

I have to. So I would say unpack. I think it's important to like assess their comfort to your point of like some clients might not be comfortable with it. It's so meaningful. Like, I I do try to make sure I'm not like that's not my focus, but especially like I if I wanna they just said something really meaningful and I don't want to forget that they said that, like I need to jot that down. Or if they're in the middle of something and I have a thought about like, well, is this a pattern based off of stuff we've talked about in other sessions? I might write down like what that thought was so I don't lose it if I need to come back to it, but like I don't try to be like writing throughout, but like also, you know, with like if I'm going into like EMDR sessions with the client, like it's critical that I am taking notes, like because I'm kind of watching like how they're adapting, and so it can be really meaningful and purposeful, and so like I would say like for me it's a must, although it can be in different like intensity depending on the client. Dress code, like do you feel like they're I guess this is broad, so unpack or put it back. I mean, like I think as I was coming up into the profession, it was more at least like a business casual or something to that effect where I think that is not my stance anymore. But what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01:

I am a casual girl. I I'll wear like a sweater and jeans. I mean, I'm not showing up in cookie monster pajama pants or like ripped jeans or something, but I think again it goes back to that like I am a human being and this is how I'm most comfortable. And also it can be intimidating for people to come to to therapy and to to to meet with a counselor, and so I think if I can remove that barrier to entry by looking like a normal lady, then I'm very happy to do that because it's also more comfortable for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that was part of my evolution into the profession, like just dress code, but also like some of these things where we talk about the power differential and like normalizing things. I remember thinking like, oh, I'm never gonna take soda into a session because like I know I shouldn't be addicted to Diet Coke, so like I'm not gonna take the Diet Coke in because like that's not modeling good behavior. You could argue, yeah, like maybe you wanna like take that stance, sure, but I also like we can humanize that. Like, I I'm not a going example of a perfect human. I am just a human. There is no such thing as a perfect human. And so I think like I have different views on it now than I I did, and that comes to like beverages and session, dress code as well. So yeah, like I think it's also really important that clients feel like we're like them, and in order to do that, me wearing like a power suit maybe isn't the vibe, especially in telehealth. Um my gosh, yeah. What about walking with clients, like doing moving sessions? That's the last one I have for you. Unpack or put it back.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't really go for walks, but I will play volleyball and soccer, and I love to go outside with my clients with the knowledge that like we can't ensure the most privacy. Yeah. Or, you know, but I love it. I think it helps clients get out of their heads. I think it helps me regulate when it lines up with that. Like, yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I agree. I think like if it's something that it's intentional and often, like, yeah, you can build that into informed consent and like some of your paperwork and what have you, that like obviously if we're gonna meet at a park and go for a walk, like that, we can't like ensure all of this, but that that can be really helpful. I you know, I want clients to feel empowered to do what they need to do in a session. And if that means that you are making a crock pot meal while we're in session, because that's helpful to you, like I'm not this is your session, like yeah, I want you to be able to focus. No, you shouldn't be driving while we're meeting, but like if it's also something that, like, hey, this takes a load off for you, like, cool. And if and I think being outdoors and moving is something that we know is really good for our own health, mental health, and well being, then why wouldn't we? Do that with clients and model that or engage in that. So any that you feel like we need to unpack or put back that we haven't. I think so. I think that was such a good list. Yeah. And we want you to think of others. Certainly we can play this game, you know, again and want to hear from you. So feel free to drop us a line in the show notes or reach out to us on social media. This was another edition of Let's Unpack That, where we remember that in counseling context is everything. Let us know what you want to unpack next. Thanks for joining us for Let's Unpack That, brought to you by Ohio Counseling Conversations and the Ohio Counseling Association. If it sparks something for you, share it with a colleague or drop us a line. We'd love to keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening. And until next time, we encourage you to keep unpacking the big stuff one conversation at a time.