Conversation 40 - The Collaborative Counselor

You can be skilled, ethical, and deeply caring, and still end up overwhelmed if you try to do counseling alone. We’re joined by Dr. Charity Anne Kurz, counselor educator and clinician, to make the case for the “collaborative counselor” and to get painfully practical about what collaboration looks like when it’s more than a nice idea. We talk about why collaboration is both a mindset and an action, how cultural humility keeps us curious instead of assumptive, and why being secure in our professional identity helps us work alongside other disciplines without feeling threatened. 

We also dig into the barriers that quietly shut collaboration down: time, caseload pressure, and the slow drift toward isolation. Dr. Charity shares why isolation can become an “ethical slip and slide,” plus how consultation and accountability protect both the client and the counselor. If you’re early in your career, you’ll hear concrete encouragement to build a network now, before you need it, and to stop carrying a savior-sized load that was never yours to carry. 

A major thread is faith and mental health. Spirituality is a core part of multicultural counseling, yet many clinicians avoid it out of fear, uncertainty, or past hurts. We walk through respectful intake questions, how to explore a client’s lived spirituality without assumptions, and what healthy collaboration with faith communities can look like, including prevention-focused training and clear referral practices. We also cover telehealth counseling realities, community mapping, and how strategic partnerships can expand care while giving you time back. 

If this conversation helps you rethink your support system, share it with a colleague, subscribe for more Ohio Counseling Conversation, and leave a review so more counselors can find it. What’s one collaboration you want to build this year?

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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee

·Hosted by Marisa Cargill

·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill, Victoria Frazier, and Shannon O'Mara

·Editing by Marisa Cargill

·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Today we're joined by Dr. Charity Ann Kurtz, a counselor educator, clinician, and community collaborator whose work sits at the intersection of counseling, faith communities, and professional partnership. Originally from Youngstown, Ohio, Dr. Charity earned her bachelor's in education and master's in counseling from Youngstown State University before completing her PhD in counselor education at Penn State. Across her career, she has served as a special education teacher, counselor, church planter, pastor, and counselor educator. She is currently an associate professor in the Department of Counselor Education and Family Studies at Liberty University, the family life pastor at Light City Church in Struthers, Ohio, and the owner of Hope and Healing Wellness, a counseling practice based in Poland, Ohio. Dr. Charity is a passionate about what she calls the collaborative counselor and works closely with schools, churches, and families to support mental health and wellness across communities. Dr. Charity, we are so glad to have you here with us today. And generally speaking, we like to start off the show by having you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you into the counseling profession.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here today and excited to chat with you. And so my journey into the counseling profession started way back when I graduated from high school. I went on to do my undergrad in education at Yangstown State. And I actually am a or I was a special education teacher for quite some time and had to go back for a master's degree. And because at that time, Ohio was requiring you to go back within like five years or something. And so I went back and I decided to do school counseling because I thought, okay, well, you know, this is in the field of education. If I ever want to leave the classroom, I have that option. And so I went back and then got in it and realized, man, this is what I love about special ed was working with the families and helping with transition and talking about social skills. And so I completed my coursework in clinical mental health as well. And then went on to do my doctorate at Penn State and had the opportunity to work in the Office for Disability Services. So I was sort of catching students, right? Because I had before been writing IEPs and transition plans. Right. And I'm catching students at the university level and then completed my doctorate there in counselor and supervision with an emphasis in clinical mental health. And so that was what kind of brought me into this profession. It was sort of like it found me, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

What Collaboration Really Means

SPEAKER_01 3:19

I appreciate you sharing that. I always get so excited when our guests share that journey, just because my career counseling bring like fireworks just starts going off where I'm like, oh yeah, there's the connection and this connection and this connection. And we can see like sometimes the evolution, if you will. And I always get really excited to hear about that. So I know it sounds like you know, you've had your a few different hats on, but they're all really like, you know, from the same hat family, kind of those all require a lot of collaboration. You mentioned like when we were preparing for this episode that you're really passionate about, like a collaborative counselor. And tell us a little bit about like what that phrase means to you, yeah, and why you think it's maybe overlooked sometimes, like collaboration in the counseling profession.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, I'm so glad you highlighted that my experience has sort of led me that direction. I think it's true. You know, working as a special education teacher, we were working with, you know, parents and families and sometimes outside sources, resources, things like vocational rehabilitation, right? To be able to transition our students. And then as a school counselor, I mean, there's so much work we do with stakeholders, right? Community businesses, organizations, counseling agencies. And so my life was just all about collaboration, right? I mean, it's really essentially the work that I was doing. And so, you know, being a college professor, working, having my own clinic, I mean, I find myself doing so much collaboration just because I think it sort of set the tone, right? My previous experience set the tone to be a collaborative counselor. And I think for me, it means being willing to build partnerships and relationships with agencies, organizations, individuals to really best serve the needs of our clients. And I think it also comes with the understanding that I can't do it all, right? Like I am not a jack of all trades. I'm a counselor and I have a professional identity, but there are other entities that can come alongside and really support the work with our clients.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah. Yeah. When you you mentioned counselor and our professional identity, where do you feel like collaboration fits in with that identity? Is it a skill? Is it a mindset, something deeper?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I think it's a little bit of both. I think it's a mindset. I think you have to kind of go in and in and to sort of bring in the cultural element, right? To this idea of like cultural humility. I think that's the foundation of collaboration, of being able to step in and saying, like, I don't really know, but I'm here to learn because I want to do what's best for my client. And so I think that that cultural humility piece is so, so important. And I'm just looking at my notes too, because I want to make sure that I highlight those things. I think it's an action. I think it's, you know, not just saying, hey, look, I'm collaborative, right? But like really truly engaging in the collaborative work, I think is is really important as well. So I think it's a mindset. I think it's something you learn. I think I was sort of put in this place where I had to learn it, you know, because of the different roles and different hats I wore. But I definitely think that it's a little bit of both. I think you can learn it, but I also think you have to have this mindset that you recognize you can't do it all. And that we have resources. And as far as like how it fits specifically into professional identity, if I look at sort of, I call them the four pillars of our professional identity, Remly and Hurley, he identified those in the research. But that, you know, one of those pillars is that we function from a preventative, proactive approach, right? And I think that's where it fits the best, is like I'm able to sit back and say, okay, you know, we may not be in this space yet, but we're going, we, we are headed to this space. And so what can we do before we get to this space to really support the client? And so I think it fits under that preventative and proactive approach.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yeah. I and I really appreciate and value like that framework of it being action. Because I think we hear like about skills, but you have to enact the skill, right? That that's a really important part to maybe close the gap. And that as we do that as an action, like what you're saying speaks to maybe it also being like preventative and protective for us as counselors, that like our ability and I don't know, like acting of collaborating with others can protect us from burnout. Like, we don't have to fall. Like, there are other ways that we can go about this. Yeah. Because a lot of people who listen to the podcast might be early in their career. Do you mind telling us a little bit about like your experiences with collaboration early in your bouncing profession and maybe how that served you and maybe how you see it serving you you today?

Identity Humility And Burnout Prevention

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, when I think about working with people early in their career, I get to do that. That's my, you know, as a college professor. And I think part of it is really embracing it in the training initially, right? And embracing that what collaboration looks like there. And one of my favorite things that I always encourage students to do is really build a network while they're in their master's program. Like even today, I have people that I graduate in the master's program with that I can call and be like, hey, I want to consult about this, or hey, I need a resource. Yeah. And I think that is so important is to build that network and understand that we don't do this work in isolation. And the moment we begin to do this work in isolation, in my mind, is like stepping on the ethical slip and slide and understanding that we have to hold each other accountable, that we have to be there to support each other. And you're right, like when we look at the burnout rates for this profession, it's sad to me because there's really, if you look at the essence of counseling, it's about people. So why are we as counselors isolating ourselves, right? And I think it's intentional work that we do to step into these collaborative spaces. It's intentional to pick up the phone and consult with somebody or you know, collaborate on a project or a community outreach or whatever that looks like. I think that it's a very, it's very intentional work. And the moment that we begin to isolate and we move away from that is when we really need to be. I think that that is what leads us into these spaces that are unhealthy, right? Where burnout is evident, where we could be uh committing ethical violations. I always tell students, nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I'm gonna commit an ethical violation today. You know, nobody does that. It's because we accidentally step somewhere that we shouldn't have stepped. And without having that accountability, that collaboration with other clinicians, with other agencies and entities, I think we walk a fine line.

Time Caseload And Isolation Barriers

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, yeah. My brain is like going in so many directions. But like I I think it's not lost in me to talk about building a network early as counselor educator, as a counselor, like even just as like a person, right? We it's good to have support. And like if we establish that practice early, right? Like if we learn to ask for help early, then it's a comfortable and familiar thing to do as we continue on. And you know, like you, like I have, you know, my bestie from my masters, yeah. Like there are other people too, but like like she and I will text often, like you know, grab a bite to eat. But that it's like, hey, if I have a question, like I know I can bounce this idea off of her and and maybe see what her take is on it. So definitely not lost on me. But I think like so valuable and meaningful and also establishes like a best practice early on. Yeah, I love that. In your experience, like, what do you feel like maybe are some of the bigger barriers that keep counselors from collaborating more with other professionals or even like community partners?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, and I think some of it depends on where you're located, right? If you're doing rural counseling versus counseling in bigger cities, I mean, I think there's barriers there that just exist and we know we recognize that. Um but I do think that one of the barriers that I hear a lot about is just time. Oh, well, there's just no time, there's just no time. When I think we're not realizing that sometimes, let me back up and say this. If we don't manage our time, time will manage us. Yeah, right. I mean, like let's be honest, it just does.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Like I'm feeling attacked here. Right. This is real talk, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

It's real talk. But I mean, it's true. It's like it's it's the same for me. Like, if I don't manage it, it's gonna manage me, you know? Right. And so I think that goes back to this whole conversation of like I don't have time when when we don't necessarily when we don't manage our time and we don't realize that sometimes collaboration actually gives us more time, right? Because it's it's creating space for us to breathe. It's creating space for maybe us to do something else, you know. I think that becomes the issue. Like we say, we don't have time, but really and there's another concern for me too. Like I'm gonna be, this is again, just being really frank. I think sometimes people take on more clients than they really probably have the capacity for. And so they're trying to juggle all the clients, but in actuality, they're not, you know, not doing the collaborative work that's necessary to really be able to meet the needs of those clients. And so I think you have to be careful. You have to be able to recognize like I've taken on too much, I really need to step back. And I understand, I mean, money is a thing, right? I mean, like that's how we live and survive. And yeah, but I do think that time sometimes becomes that barrier, if you will, of really being able to engage in the collaboration. And yeah, I think that's a concern for me. I hear it a lot, even about like, well, I don't go to conferences because you know, I've got a full client client caseload. I appreciate that and I'm glad that you have a full client caseload. But taking that time aside and being able to like collaborate and consult and to connect with other clinicians is so valuable to your work with those clients. And in the big picture, that's gonna be what's most beneficial for them.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, yeah. I've seen that happen organically at conferences too, where like maybe something's opened up for questions, even early in a session, and it's like, okay, well, then this person's, you know, like question turns into like the case study that we're all gonna unpack together and and consult on to say, like, how might we address that? And then, you know, the leaders might be able to respond in ways that like, you know, their expertise brings, you know, a little bit in there, but that there's value in having those spaces, but also carving out time for them.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think collabor going back to what we said earlier, collaboration is active work, right? It's not just I'm gonna get the information and I'm gonna walk away. It's like, no, now I've got the information and now I'm responsible for doing something with it. And I think that's another piece of this too. I see consultation sort of like as an arm of collaboration. Maybe that's just the way I see it, but yeah, definitely like one piece of collaboration, but we can't get the information and then just walk away from it and tuck it in the drawer and not do anything with it. Yeah, like what do you do with it now? Now that you have it.

unknown 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

You shared with us when we were prepping for this, like just some of your professional experiences have also had you collaborating with um closely with faith-based organizations and their leaders. What do you feel like that looks like between counselors and in faith communities and and especially when it's working well?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. I think one thing I want to highlight, and again, this is real talk. I'm just being honest. I think one of the things I personally struggle with sometimes in the profession is that when we look at multiculturalism, we don't always look at the spirituality piece. And I learned this really, maybe in a really powerful way. That's what I'll say. When I was in Texas, we moved into what I called the buckle of the Bible. Okay, and I was doing my intakes with clients and realized that through that process, not asking them about their spirituality was really a disservice to them because we were in the buckle of the Bible belt, you know, like it was and not understanding it from their perspective, right? I couldn't make assumptions just because a person, you know, was engaged with a faith, faith community didn't mean that they believed everything that that faith community put out. Didn't it just was a connection point for them? And so being able to do that was so important. And I realized that it was for me, it was unethical not to have those conversations. But I think sometimes as counselors, we shy away from those conversations with our clients because we don't want to either accidentally push our values or we're afraid to step in those spaces because we don't know what to say. But in actuality, when we look at the big picture, spirituality is a big part of multiculturalism. And so I think counselors being willing to step in those spaces with from a cultural humility standpoint is really important and coming alongside to meet the needs of the community. You know, we talk about that proactive, preventative approach, right? This is an awesome place to talk about relationships with churches. So I had the privilege just I mean it's about a year ago now, maybe a year and a half ago, I partnered with a church in Cleveland who was looking for parent support for their parents. They had a lot of young families in their church and in their community, and they were like, Could you come in and do some parent training? Well, I get involved in there and I'm I'm like planning with them and everything. And Child Protective Services had reached out and said, Hey, we heard you guys were doing this. Could we send our people to the to this seminar so that they could get the training? And so this church partnered with Child Protective Services and with uh me and another individual to be able to put this together to be able to meet the needs of the community. And I thought, wow, how powerful, right? Like we didn't have to be on the same faith page per se, but we were able to be able to provide this support for people in the community. And I think when we aren't willing to step in those spaces, we really miss out on an opportunity to meet the needs, you know? And again, most of the time when we see our clients, it's because there's a problem, right? Let's just be honest. They've hit this problem. But if we can, as counselors, step into these spaces and be proactive and preventative, like that's where it's at. We want to help build the toolbox of our clients so that they or toolbox of individuals so that maybe they don't end up as clients because we have done the preventative and collaborative work up front to really be able to help them build their tools.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people, like you were saying, people meaning counselors, I guess, in our profession, maybe do feel that fear or discomfort in navigating conversations around faith and mental health. From your experiences, what have you learned along like working alongside church leaders, pastors that maybe would help other counselors feel more comfortable entering into those spaces?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah. No, I think that's a great question. I think I think a lot of it, and as we talk about, you know, in counseling our own values and beliefs and being able to bracket those walking into spaces, I think unfortunately, people and counselors included have had bad experiences in faith communities. And so there is an element of, oh, I don't know if I want to walk in that space because of what I've experienced, you know, or what we've here heard our clients experience. I've heard lots of things from my clients about things that they've experienced that just weren't great. And so I think there's that hesitation of stepping in that space sometimes because of our own stuff, you know, and being able to bracket that and put that to the side, I think is important. I think it's also important to understand that people don't know what they don't know, you know? And I think I think about is a my Maya Angelou quote, and she says something like, when people know better, they do better. And I think that's kind of the the mindset that I come from is that people, if they know better, they're gonna do better, right? So I really believe that if we can equip people, then they're gonna do better because they have the equipment, they have the uh the skills, right, that they were equipped with. And I think it's the same in the church, right? Like many ministers, individuals of faith communities don't necessarily understand mental health and how it fits into their spiritual framework. And I think that's where sometimes the sticking point is, right? Where, you know, I've worked with individuals who are like, I will not take medication. I believe that, you know, God's gonna heal. And you can hold those values and beliefs, but your values and beliefs can exist and your spirituality can exist in the same space as working towards wellness. And I think it's helping them understand, right, what wellness looks like with the context of their faith, even from a Christian standpoint, wellness is something that is a stewardship principle, right? Like in my mind, we're called as Christians to steward ourselves, to steward our our mind, steward our body, all of the things that we talk about in our wellness wheel. And so it's a connection between stewardship and wellness. And so it's figuring out what are the connections, whether it's, you know, a different faith community, where how do I work to not make assumptions, but come at it from a cultural humility approach. And so I think it's helping people understand, have a healthy view and understanding of what mental health is. And I think it's also helping people in the faith communities know too when to refer. That's a that's an issue, right? Like working with a person or you know, a pastor may be working or minister be working with a person and they don't know when to refer that person for mental health counseling. And so helping them understand referral process, helping them understand mental health in the context of their spiritual beliefs, I think are all things that we can do as counselors if we're willing to step in that space.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Some of the things that are coming to mind, like as you're sharing that with me too, are how do we like ask those practical questions to the clients to exhibit that humility and not you know, like infringe on or assume anything?

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah. So one of the questions I like to ask in my intake is tell me a little bit about the spirituality. How important is that to you? So a client might say, Well, it's not important at all. And then it's like, okay. You know, some clients will say, Oh, it's important to me, and then I'll Say, okay, tell me about what that looks like for you. What does that look like on a weekly basis for you or a daily basis for you? And so what you're doing is you're exploring, right? You're asking clarifying questions to explore to understand sort of how they're conceptualizing their own spirituality. It was interesting. One of my clients, when I was working in the buckle of the Bible belt, was I said, one of my clients had said, Oh, spirituality is really important to me. And I said, Okay, well, tell me about what that looks like. And they were like, Well, I go to church on Christmas and Easter. And I was like, Okay. You know, but it was interesting to me because very important to me did not equate to attending church twice a week or twice a year, excuse me. You see what I'm saying? So it's like having this mindset of like, okay, what is very important to you? What does that look like? How does that play out? And and not again, making assumptions because I think that's where we go wrong is we make assumptions. And then I think people are afraid to make those assumptions so they don't address it. It's kind of like the elephant in the room, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah, yeah. And I think one thing I've noticed and it may be like it's part of like the humility piece. Like I have, you know, clients of of many different faith backgrounds, but like if I don't know something, I might say, like, I don't, I'm not as familiar with like those traditions or customs or like this holiday. Like, yeah, what it, you know, like tell me more about what's that mean for you, or how does your family celebrate that or what have you? Like, I I know the time we're recording this, you know, Ramadan's wrapping up, and yeah, and I have clients who are fasting, you know, this last month. And so understanding like even how that shapes yeah, I've been working with you for over a year, but like how that's shaping our sessions like within that month and yeah, understanding those things. But it's it's been something where I think oftentimes clients don't expect us to be the expert on all of that, but like asking those curiosity questions and understanding like how it impacts their life and like right, it's it's not yeah, it feels scary if you've never done it, but like when you do it, clients are generally oh, like you care.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's part of our wellness model, right? When we look at the wellness model, spirituality is part of that wellness model, and so being able to address that, I think is is is that's what we're we're responsible to do. Yeah, I'm gonna assess wellness, right? I'm gonna assess that aspect of the person. So yeah, and I think you could do that in a very, you know, bracketing your own values or beliefs, bracketing your own experiences, right? Because we know our experiences filter into our values and our beliefs, then we can address it in a a more productive way, I think. But I think we have to be careful not to shy away from that because I think we isolate an entire entire section of the population when we aren't willing to step in those spaces. And so I think that's an important element of this too, which is why collaboration with faith communities is essential.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, and from a holistic approach, we have to like understand the whole person. So 100%. What are some practical ways you feel like counselors could start building collaborative relationships like in their communities, whether that's with faith-based organizations or medical providers or the schools or or other professionals? What are some suggestions?

How To Ask About Spirituality

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Suggestions. I love that. No, I think that's great. It's the practical stuff, right? Right. So I think being able to connect, and and I've done this before where I've just called and I'll say, Hey, this is Dr. Charity from Hope and Healing Wellness. This is what I do, and I just want to connect with you. Show maybe showing up with uh I laugh about it because I'm a big office fan. I don't know if you're an office fan, but there was more of a friends girly, like, yeah. Yeah. So there was this episode where Dwight and Michael took this like gift basket to this business, but that's what it makes me think of is like letting them know, hey, I'm here to support you. Here's some here's some literature about what we do and how could we connect. Um, I think is really an important piece. And I think the other piece of this too is understanding that it's not a one and done. Collaborative relationships take time. Yeah. And so there's to be trust, right? There, just like with our clients, there has to be trust. There's rapport building. And so it's not like I'm just gonna go do this one thing and then I'm done and I've tried, right? It's like, no, I'm gonna commit to continuing in this work and continuing to connect. And so I think that's a really important piece. Find out what the needs are. How can you meet help them meet the needs of the population that they serve? Like I said, you know, working with the church in Cleveland was a really cool opportunity. And what else I wanted to say this too about that opportunity, the the other individual that worked with me to do the training is an educator. So I came in as a counselor, this person came in as an educator. We've got, you know, the church providing the space and the partnership with CPS. I mean, it was just it was a really great way to bring multiple disciplines, if you will, together to be able to work to meet the needs. And so I think just that practicality of reaching out, letting them know I'm here, even in your local community. Like where are what are the local faith communities that are surrounding your counseling agency or office? You know, what are the local, like we have one here that I want to part, I want to work with. It's a nonprofit specifically for women who are single moms. And I'm like, wow, that would be a great place where I could go in and I could say, yeah, what could I offer some parent training or some moms support for moms? Could we do a mom support group? What could I do to help you? And I think that again is finding ways to be able to meet the needs of the people in your community. And really, to me, part of that collaboration is building really deep roots in your community so that they know that you're there and you're there for the long haul. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Can I throw a wrench at you? Yeah, of course. As someone who solely works in telehealth, yes. I'm just curious if you have any suggestions maybe for that, because like my clients are all over the state. And so what does maybe collaboration look like in in those kinds of spaces? How do you see it like looking a little different?

Practical Steps To Build Partnerships

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great, great comment because I also do telehealth. And so it's very, that's very similar. I think you know, part of that collaboration is understanding what resources are available. You and I both know, like when you do telehealth, you have to know, you know, the resources available in the area for your client, right? Because if you have an emergency or the client needs something, so I think it's building up, we used to call it in school community mapping, and I love that idea, like mapping your community and knowing what your resources are and what knowing the resources are. I think it's still possible to do partnerships like that, you know, whether it be you offer some telehealth or some training through telehealth, you are part of maybe some of the meetings that some of the local services, support services offer, and then being able to partner with those. I would look at the ones that you I would look at where your concentrated area of clients are, honestly, and and sort of start there. Because here's the other thing this work can seem so overwhelming because it is kind of a black hole. Like once you start doing it, right? You know what I mean? There's like never, there's never a time where you won't have an opportunity to collaborate or connect with somebody. Right. So you need to be strategic about that too. I think it has to fit under, if you're a private practice owner, it's got to fit into your vision of the private practice, right? It's got to fit into does this work fit into the vision here? And if it doesn't, then you say no, you know, because it's got to align with the vision. So I think it's strategic. And I think it's part of that business model of like figuring out, okay, what am I, what could my collaborative relationships look like to best serve the needs of the clients that I work with.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Definitely. And I think you're speaking to this like broader picture sometimes too, that like when we're collaborating, we have to know the resources well enough. Maybe we don't have to know it all, but we have to know where we can find information. Yep. And that also acknowledge in some of those conversations that we don't know, right? Like some humility in approaching conversations. How do you approach conversations with like collaborators, other folks who come from really different like training backgrounds or even belief systems?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the things that's so important is us as counselors valuing what other people bring to the table. And I think that is such an important piece to this, you know, alongside cultural humility is valuing what people bring to the table. What a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a social worker, you know, we all come from different models. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Like even like socialized. Yeah. A lot of people are dual licensed, like the MST folks. Like I don't like, no shade. I don't want to work with couples and family. Like, like, I don't feel like that's my strength and my wheelhouse. And so I have like mad respect for people who who want that and like have different approach to working right with their clients. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, I think that's it. I think, you know, understanding that we they all bring something to the table. And I think that's why it's so important for us to be secure in our own professional identity, right? Yeah. And who we are as counselors, so that when we are stepping in these spaces, we're not feeling like they're overstepping us or they don't know what they're talking about, right? They just put on different glasses for how they conceptualize the their client needs and the needs of the people. And so I think it's it's going in with this mentality that these that these individuals bring so much to the table. And that although I may not understand, you know, it in the larger context or in the smaller context, I don't have to necessarily understand it. I think that's the other piece. We have to be okay with not fully understanding it at times.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

And also like acknowledging and not like devaluing ourselves when we go to those tables, like I know what value I bring here, but what I'm 100% using this collaborative like effort for is to also have additional perspective or like tools to support uh the the people I serve.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, absolutely. But I think that goes back to professional identity, right? If we're secure in who we are as a profession and as a as a professional, then I'm not gonna feel threatened by what these people bring to the table, right? I'm gonna see myself as another part to be able to help serve this population or this individual. So I think that's to me, that's the most valuable. And I think, you know, stepping in again with that cultural humility approach, not knowing, right? I don't, even though I have a understanding of what a psychologist does, I can't group all psychologists in the same box. I have an understanding of what a psychiatrist, the same, I look at understanding what a counselor does, but I also can't group them all in the same box. Why? Because they don't all fit in the same box. We know that, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Right. Yeah, because everyone's still gonna have like their own unique approach to supporting finds, sir. For sure. You know, back to some of the the discussion we had earlier about like encouraging your students to build a network. For counselors who are earlier in in their career, how would you suggest they start seeing themselves as part of the broader collaborative network so that they can prevent maybe that working in isolation situation?

Collaboration Tips For Telehealth

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah, I think it's a a matter of recognizing that, right? Of like we don't we don't have to work in isolation that we do bring things to the table, that there are other entities to support. I think it's easy for real talk. It's easy for yeah, it's easy for I think individuals sometimes in this profession. We all know we go in this profession for a reason, right? There's sort of around and we talked a little bit about my journey, but not necessarily the reason why I went to the profession. But I think we all have a reason for why we want to be counselors and real talk, we all get something from being a counselor. Yeah. Let's just be honest. Right. We all get something. So I think that one of the things we have to be careful with is if we're going in this profession with the idea that we are gonna save someone or we're going to, you know, yeah, exactly, right? It's like that's sort of savior complex, we say, right. But like if we go in with that kind of mentality, we're less likely to collaborate because we're gonna put it on us. Like it's our responsibility to save this person. In actuality, it's not, right? And I think that's what it goes back to is like understanding it's not my job to fix this person, it's not my job to save this person, it's my job to journey with this person. And along that journey, I'm gonna come in contact with other people who are also going to want to journey with this person who are gonna be helpful in this process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Real talk, you're triggering me to think about like how OCA has actually been like such a good resource for me in that regard because I have people I can go to on a literally in a meeting. Yeah. Uh prior to our interview where I was sharing the screen, showing them something on ACA's page just because I was like, oh, this is a cool idea. Like, you know, let's look at this for a second. And then there was like a comment on it that triggered me to be like, wait, I have three other counselors like in this like Zoom session with me. Can I ask a consult question real quick? And that like it it loops me into like having that, which I think is especially useful for me because I solely practice telehealth. Like I'm not in an office with other counselors day to day. And so, like, my access to other counselors is really enriched by OCA. And yes, that is a soft plug, but also like really just a genuine thought as you were sharing that, like, thank goodness I have this group because like that has helps me kind of stay connected to other professionals, like within our community. But I think like to your point that you were saying earlier is like not every counselor is the same, and different specialties and different theoretical approaches, even just geographical like things that that are practical in that regard are really helpful tools. And yeah, I think like the OCA has helped me collaborate a lot more, sometimes very um intentionally, and sometimes like spur of the moment in a meeting where I'm like, wait a minute, I have a question. Totally derailing the meeting, but it helped.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

But I think if you go in with a collaborative spirit, right? Like you're gonna see those opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Right. And it what was really, I mean, shout out to my teammates, but like that it was actually like, oh, like it didn't feel like a huge deviation and that they were very willing to be like, oh yeah, like here's you know my perspective on it. So it was yeah, very useful. So thank you for like making me kind of cement that and remind myself of that that power. If you could share maybe a moment where collaboration has truly changed an outcome for a client for you or within the community, or even your own understanding of like your role in counting, I'd love to hear some of that transformative experience.

Working Across Disciplines With Respect

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, the first time that I saw the benefit or maybe heard from another stakeholder the benefit of the collaboration was I actually was a school counselor and I was working with a student who was going through quite a bit. And the student was seeing a counselor on the outside. And, you know, I did what they tell you to do in school, like, okay, could we get a release form so we could talk to the counselor and vice versa, right? So we can make these partnerships. And I remember this was a defining moment for me. I remember calling the counselor of this particular student, introducing myself and saying to the counselor, I would really like to build some partnership with you so that I understand what you're being what's being taught there, what skills you're giving the student in your client in counseling, and then be able to translate those to the school environment. Yeah. And I remember the the transformative moment for me was the counselor replied to me. He said, Charity, I work with a lot of young people in schools. And he said, You are the only counselor who has reached out to me to build that kind of collaborative relationship. I know that's what I said. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute, what? Like it was very shocking for me. And I realized we're doing clients a disservice, we're doing students a disservice by not having those partnerships. Because what I wanted to do was take the language, the skills they were using in that space and help students translate them into the school space rather than me coming in and like teaching something brand new. Right. Like help reinforce like whatever's already being worked on, like and and apply it in this other context.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Like, let me be the conduit conduit for that, you know. And I remember that stuck with me. And even as a counselor educator, I had that conversation quite a bit in my classes because I realized, you know, what a disservice we would be doing to clients in that particular standpoint or uh setting. Or, you know, here's another one. Like, I also love career counseling. I heard you say that earlier. And I didn't know about that about you. So I love that. I was a career counselor at Penn State when I was there too.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Yeah, I I spent almost nine years at a local community college. And so, like in the counseling center there, like what is really interesting, I guess, and a lot of community colleges have this model, although like universities are are typically different, that like it really mimics school counseling in terms of the office because we do the career, the academic, the middle house crisis, like all in one center where it's usually segregated at the university level. And so, like, I I wore the career counseling hat there, taught career exploration course for like undecided majors, and then also taught like career counseling at the university University of Akron for like years. So cool. I'm like a career counseling nerd at time.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Same. So that's probably yeah, me too. Yeah, but even on on that side of it too, like you know, when you're working with a client who may who may potentially qualify for vocational rehab services, right? Like that's an opportunity for you to connect them with VR and then to help build that partnership because I'm doing some career work, they could do some career work there too. Let's just make sure we're speaking the same language. Yeah. You know, and so understanding that it's not like they're getting counseling like they would be getting from me with VR, but they're gonna get resources and so we can incorporate the the two of those things to really be able to help the client.

When Collaboration Changes Outcomes

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yeah, I agree. If you feel like, you know, in the next five to 10 years, the counseling profession like fully embraced this idea of the collaborative counselor. What do you think the work or impact would be? Like how would things look different than they are currently?

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah, I think if I can be really frank, I think there'd be a greater respect for the profession.

unknown 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

I think people would see, you know, that there's power, there's value here. Like they're bringing a perspective that is valuable to the work that we do. And so also I think too, we get advocates, right? We have advocates in other professions who are like, yeah, counselors are necessary. Like this is so important, the work that they do. And so I think part of it is as you build those relationships, and I think we have to think about this holistically too, as each of us individually builds this relationships, these relationships, it's a mark on the profession, a good mark, right? It's a it's it's helping people see like there's value in the work that they do. And I want to be known as a collaborative individual. I don't, you know, at the end of the day, I want people to see me that way. I don't want people to think like that. I think that I know everything or that I'm the end all be all because I am not. And I am letting you know that I am not, right? Right, right. But I think there would be greater, a greater, just greater respect. I also think, too, that maybe we'd be focusing more on proactive than reactive approaches, right? Like most of the time, by the time they get to us, it's because it's reactive. Like we're experiencing this, and I want to be there for a client, but our professional identity says that we work towards proactivity. So, how can we work to increase our proactivity? So I think collaboration would help us to do that in a pretty map powerful, meaningful way.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Yeah, yeah. It gives like counselors and and the profession like creator representation to other professions. And like while we were saying that, what I couldn't like get my mind. Off of was that like, oh, like that marketing mindset of word of mouth is like the best, right? Yeah. And that by taking a collaborative approach, we allow more room for that. Like as positive marketing for ourselves, but also totally for the profession that like people see us in a different light, maybe than they had before.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

I actually more aware.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah. It's funny you brought that up because I actually was talking to a potential client today, this morning, actually before we got on the call, and a school that I had done some partnership work with referred this client. And so how funny. Again, collaborating, I was collaborating with a school, I was doing some training for their teachers, and the school referred this potential potential client. So not that you know we're collaborating per se to obtain clients, but I do think that there is an element, like you said, that there's a marketing element there.

The Future Impact Of Collaboration

SPEAKER_01 45:35

And yeah, like we're human, we still have to survive. And so like we do need business, but I I think like to the broader picture that if people in our community, especially I would say like other professionals, like the work that we're doing, then maybe like we get the credit we've deserved for so long, but that maybe has gone on recognized because like everything had siloed and separate. And yeah, I remember in grad school for me, probably dating myself a little bit, but like there was so much discussion about moving away from the medical model. Yeah. And maybe there are some important elements to still keep from that. Like what you know, I guess I've noticed since being in the profession is like moving back to some of that and having like collaborative care teams. And um, the idea that, like, actually, like, since we know it's all connected, like that we're paying attention to how it's connected and like being able to collaborate with others as a testament to like, hey, they're they're improving here, but like if we're all separate, like then it kind of stays separate. I know, like I recently like was working with a client who felt like their psychiatrist, no shade of psychiatry or anything like that. Right, right, right. We didn't understand like their day-to-day symptomology because they were really only like med checks and and things happening. So checklists. Yeah. And so it was like, well, like then how does that speak to like maybe some documentation that they needed for something? And so it's kind of working collaboratively, like, would maybe reduce that kind of dynamic. Yep. And not only maybe help maybe those other professionals see us, but it helps our clients too, which like obviously is the the most important piece. And we should, you know, no matter the profession, all be on like the same team when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

So well, I think it helps clients feel seen, right? And heard.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Yeah. Yeah. Sort of a left turn, but we ask this question on every episode. So the name of the episode, or the name of the podcast rather, is Ohio Counseling Conversation. So we want to always ask our guests, what important conversations do you think counseling professionals should be having with each other and or their clients here in the Beccaye State? Yeah, I love that question.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

I think the biggest for me, it kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier. It's just not shying away from those conversations about religion and spirituality with our clients and with each other, because here's the other thing we learn from each other. You know, you asked a great question earlier. You said, What, how would you recommend broaching these conversations with your clients? And I think that that in and of itself, right, is something that we could be asking other professionals, like, how are you doing this? And what does this look like for you? And what does this partnership look like? And so I think just not shying away from the hard conversations just because we're afraid we're gonna offend somebody or we're afraid that, you know, we're gonna push our values or beliefs. I think you can have those hard conversations and learn. I always I often tell my students, part of my goal as a counselor educator is to help them be able to sit down with people who are completely different than them, who hold different values, different beliefs, different mindsets, different ways of being, and have a conversation with them and learn through that conversation that they still know who they are and they still have their values and their beliefs, but now they are gaining an understanding of other individuals and what they bring to the table and what their experiences are. And I think, you know, having those conversations with even within OCA, and I think you guys have are doing some of this with the podcast, right? Bringing in different perspectives to be able to listen and hear and and and challenge and grow. And, you know, I think there's there's such beauty in that. There's such beauty in the opportunity to sit down with someone different than you and learn from their experiences. There's it's it's a beautiful thing.

Ohio Conversations And Closing

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Yeah. Oh, I appreciate you sharing that. And and that's why we appreciate these conversations, right? Like get those takes and those perspectives. And I think like maybe speaks to this idea of collaboration is like sometimes it is just having a conversation with some.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah. And I think it's being open, right? It's that collaborative spirit. How can we embody a collaborative spirit?

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Well, I I feel like that's a great note to end on. How can we embody? Thank you so much, Dr. Charity. This was awesome. And I think that there are so many people who are gonna really be able to take some practical things from this and hopefully keep on collaborating. I love it. Let's do it. Awesome. Dr. Charity, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your perspective on collaboration and counselor identity. Your work is a powerful reminder that counselors don't do this work alone. When we partner with schools, faith communities, families, and other professionals, we expand the reach and impact of mental health support in meaningful ways.