Conversation 41 - Give Yourself Permission to Grow

Your next mentor might be one conversation away, but most of us still hesitate to reach out. We sit down with Dr. Jake Protivnak, counselor educator at Youngstown State University, past president of the Ohio Counseling Association, and current president of Chi Sigma Iota International, to talk about what mentorship actually is and why it shapes who we become as counselors.

We start with Jake’s own story and the mentors who guided him, including Dr. Tom Davis, the namesake of OCA’s Tom Davis Mentorship Award. From there, we get practical: how mentoring differs from advising, how it differs from clinical supervision, and why the best mentoring keeps a mentee’s values and goals front and center. If you’ve ever wanted someone to “just tell you what to do,” we unpack how great mentors support autonomy without leaving you alone.

We also zoom out to the bigger picture of professional identity and community. Jake explains why Chi Sigma Iota (CSI) matters for counseling students beyond a resume line, including leadership opportunities, professional development, scholarships, and real connection for busy or commuting students. Then we dive into counseling history, digital archives, and Ohio’s leadership in counselor licensure and accreditation, plus what gets lost when a profession forgets its own story.

If you’re a counselor in training, newly licensed, or a seasoned clinician looking to give back, you’ll leave with clear next steps and renewed pride in the counseling profession. Subscribe, share this with a colleague or cohort member, and leave a review so more counselors can find the mentors and community they deserve.

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If you’re a counselor in Ohio and would like to get involved as part of production or as a guest, or know someone who might be interested, please email us at ohiocounselingconversations@gmail.com!

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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee

·Hosted by Marisa Cargill

·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill, Victoria Frazier, and Shannon O'Mara

·Editing by Marisa Cargill

·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations, the podcast of the Ohio Counseling Association, where we talk with counselors, advocates, and leaders who are shaping the profession here in Ohio and beyond. I'm your host, Dr. Marissa Cargill, and today's guest is someone whose fingerprints are all over the counseling profession in Ohio, at Youngstown State University, and now on an international stage.

unknown 1:04

Dr.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Jake Brativnak is a faculty member and counselor educator at YSU, a former OCA president, and the current president of Chi Sigma IOTA International, the Counseling Honor Society that is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year. He's also a historian of the profession in the truest sense, having documented decades of counseling program history and helped build OCA's digital archive. Today we're celebrating Dr. Pratnak as the recipient of OCA's Tom Davis Mentorship Award and using that as our jumping off point to talk about what mentorship really looks like in this profession, why counseling history matters, and what students and new counselors can do right now to get more connected.

unknown 1:45

Dr.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Prativnak, welcome to Ohio Counseling Conversations. We're so happy to have you join us. Again, thank you. And for listeners who might not be familiar, you mind starting us off with telling us a little bit about yourself and what led you into the counseling profession?

Jake’s Path Into Counseling

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Sure. Thank you for inviting me to be on this podcast. I'm thrilled to be here and to talk about mentorship, the power of mentorship. So a little bit about myself. I am a professor and also counseling program director at Youngstown State University in Youngstown, Ohio. Been there for a little about 21 years. I'm also a licensed professional clinical counselor, supervising, and a licensed school counselor and a nationally certified counselor. And I earned my doctorate from Ohio University and my master's from Kent State University. A little bit about uh, and you asked what led me to this profession.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

It's like my favorite part of the interview because I have like a career counseling like geek out every time someone shares this.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Well, I've also taught career counseling and uh and so uh just I also appreciate hearing about other folks' backgrounds and what led them into their career. For me, there's like kind of two main threads that that led me to become a counselor. The first one is that I took a psychology course my freshman year of college. I was really amazed about what I learned about myself. I didn't have a site course or any site content as a high school student. I took that general psych course and I wanted to learn more. I was I was hooked. I wanted to learn about myself, I wanted to learn more about my family, wanted to learn more about others. And so I took that course and then I wanted to take other courses. I eventually switched my major. I started out as a business major, and then I dropped that, and I decided I wanted to be a psychology major with a group of friends who were also psych majors. So we used to spend a lot of time talking about psychology stuff, like uh, you know, going out and getting food late at night and just talking about some of these bigger issues, and uh and that developed into me wanting to learn more about not just psychology in general, but how to help people, help people through counseling. And I had a mentor, an individual, a guy named Ken Goodrow, and he worked in the student affairs office at my university, and he was a licensed counselor, and he said, if you want to become a counselor, find a K-Crep accredited program, master's program.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I didn't know anything about K-Crep. I never heard the word K-Crep before, but he was a mentor of mine and I took his advice, so that's what I did. And I, you know, eventually I was at Kent and then at Ohio University.

unknown 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

So that was that's a little bit about the the like the how that those type of steps, but yeah, I said the second part was a little bit more about the why. And for me, I I would connect that back to my childhood. I was raised in a single parent family, and I had a mom who was always helping other single moms, moms who went through you know, divorce and things like that. I I remember my mom just well, I remember these single parents and their families at my house as a kid.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

And, you know, they're they have problems and struggles and difficulties. And I remember, you know, just kind of walking through the house and seeing my mom, who is not a licensed counselor, right? Doing informal counseling and being supportive and providing empathy. And yeah, and there was, I just I'm I mean, I remember waking up one morning and there was a car in our driveway, and it was a mother and their three kids, and they were just waiting until morning because they needed to leave a situation that was unsafe so they could come into our home, which was a safe, safe for other folk. So I, you know, I saw an example of the power of conversation of the informal council, and it developed into something that I know I wanted to.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you sharing that like personal element. I think we all have like our individual stories about what led us, but that sounds like you had some incredible like modeling, right? In in your home and being a safe place meant something. So I appreciate you sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Yeah, yeah. It was uh it was modeling, it was parenting, but it also it has that tie to mentorship. You know, it's a parent, you're parenting, but you're also mentoring. Yeah, yeah as well.

The Tom Davis Mentorship Award

SPEAKER_03 7:25

A lot of humanity in that story. So, you know, like I'm digesting it, and I'm sure our listeners are too, but that yeah, it speaks to like that humanity of it all, and that that fosters a lot of empathy. But like you said, mentorship and there are congratulations in order because you recently received OCA's Tom Davis Mentorship Award in 2025. And listeners may not be completely familiar with that award or its namesake. Can you share a little bit about what this recognition means to you and who Tom Davis is to the counseling profession in Ohio?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Absolutely. So I was very honored to receive the Dr. Tom Davis Award, mentorship award. Tom Davis is a counselor educator. He was he's now emeritus professor, he was a department chair at Ohio University. He was past president of the Ohio Counseling Association. He was a Kate Krepp uh board member who really can move Kate Krepp through some significant changes that strengthened uh professional identity of cancer education, actively involved throughout his career in the Ohio Counseling Association and counseling licensure issues in Ohio. And so that's that's a little bit about Tom. And there's so much more to say in addition to all of his teaching and his his research and and all of that. But for me, I was his graduate assistant. Uh, and he was my uh dissertation chair when I was a doctoral student at Ohio University. So he has been a mentor for me, you know, since I started my doc program, and he's continued to be a mentor for me over the years. Just another thing I'll mention about him his students affectionately refer to him as coach, coach Tom D. Because his approach to mentorship is is in some ways like how a coach would you know interact with their athletes. And so there's that that shared affection for our coach and our mentor, and so myself and other students who had him as a professor or well, you know, or he shared their dissertation feel very strongly.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

So for me to be able to receive that mentorship award, it just means it means so much to me to be able and for him to to be there.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

It's just really special.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like that carried on some of that mentorship that like you grew up with, like in your home with your mother, but that it continued on in some of these other ways throughout, and and he's one of those key players in your story.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

I I uh I saw the way that he mentored me in and other students in the program, and and I certainly wanted and hoped that I could be that type of counselor educator to my students. And I was initially connected to Dr. Davis through mentorship. I was a student at Kent State University, and as a master's student, I was also working full-time, so I was I needed to pay for my schooling while I was going through. And I would I would seek advice or mentorship from Dr. Cynthia Osborne, who was a professional counselor educator at Kent State. She's now retired, and I remember sharing my um my goals with her on what I wanted to do, and I had mentioned that I I had some interest in becoming a counselor educator and pursuing my doctorate. And I remember and I just remember this conversation sitting in her office on the third floor of White Hall, and she said, uh, there's someone I want to connect you with, uh, whose name is Dr. Tom Davis. And so she made that that connection.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

And then I took a trip down to OU to take a look at their program. I was looking at a couple other doctoral programs, and I just I felt that immediate connection, and and one mentorship relationship was able to then create the mentorship relationship.

Mentorship Moments That Stay With You

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Yeah, yeah. That shows more of that that humanity and the power and connection. Switching gears a little bit, like from the mentee to the mentor, when you reflect on like these past 20 plus years at Youngstown State, advising students, being involved in like organizations, is there a moment, a mentorship moment, a student, a conversation, a turning point that stands out as one that really crystallized why mentorship matters to you?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

There's many, and so it's being hard to pick just one, but uh but a couple come to mind in one that pulls a thread from what I was talking about regarding some of the mentors in my life. We had last year we had our CSI uh Kaisi Mayota, which is our Counseling Academic and Professional Honor Society chapter, induction at YFU. And at an induction, you typically have a guest speaker that comes in. And so I contacted Dr. Cynthia Osborne and asked if she would be our guest speaker for our induction. Yeah. She has certainly been someone I've been able to stay in connection with over the years, and someone who is a mentor. And and she was happy to agree to speak at our induction, and uh it was just wonderful to have her there. And one of the things that she shared with me was that she was preparing to retire, and that her speech at our induction was possibly one of her final professional presentations, and so to be a part of that mentoring relationship kind of at one point in her career, and then a place in my career where then her career is beginning to conclude. It was that was a special moment for me, and I also think it was a special moment for her. When I think of my own students, I'm thinking of one in particular, um, Dr. Emily Herman McMillan, who was a graduate assistant of mine at Young Sun State University when she was getting her school counseling and clerical counseling degree. And she went on to her doctoral program at Ohio State, um, prior and well, and while she was there, she was teaching uh school counseling courses. Um, she also worked professionally as a school counselor, and she ended up teaching, training, and I think being and she was a supervisor of a school counseling student who ended up becoming a school counselor becoming a school counselor where my daughter was going to school. Oh, okay, as a fifth grader. And so for me, it was when you talk about these those moments, I I like kind of thinking about that like that rented the from one point to another point. Here I have one of my students who I trained. Now my daughter has is interacting and and working with a school counselor at her school, who was then trained by you know one of my students to to kind of see that that pathway really meaningful to me.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

Yeah, the thread that like continues to be woven like great, like it it carries on.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah. And then beyond that, I I think more broadly seeing those moments where students struggled a bit in the program. And at Youngstown State University, I teach students early in the program, often in their first course, their helping skills course, and then I see students at the end of the program in an internship course. And just to be able to see their growth or to know, even if I had even if I wasn't teaching a student early in that first part of the program, knowing some of the struggles that they have had, and then been involved in helping them move through those struggles through a you know mentorship conversation or professional development conversation, and then seeing them in internship being successful, helping students and clients, it's it's very rewarding. It is personally, but then but it you know, but the bigger you know, gift is is how they're going to serve the community. A lot of moments I do mentorship through Kai Sigma Hoda, so I and that which is a little bit more, it's a it's more formalized mentoring for our leadership fellows and interns for chapter faculty advisors. But but there's a lot of moments, it's hard to yeah.

Advising Versus Mentoring In Training

SPEAKER_03 17:52

I it is really rewarding. I know we were kind of having some informal conversation prior to recording today about how it happens formally and informally, but that there's a essence of pride, but like really excitement for those students or mentees that you get to see, like then go out and spread that. Like that this is a ripple effect, like that that that positive relationship we might have had is going to hopefully influence those positive relationships you have with your own mentees or your clients or students that you're working with. So in counseling, we talk a lot about the therapeutic relationship, which I hope everyone listening knows is so incredibly important. But the mentoring relationship doesn't always get like the same airtime or attention. How would you describe the difference between advising a student and mentoring one? And why does that matter, especially for counselors?

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Well, that's a great question. And there's a lot of there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of similarity between the mentoring relationship and the therapeutic relationship when you think of the skills that are involved.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

As counselors, our foundation is based in you know, a lot of the kind of person-centered principles of being non-judgmental, empathic, having unconditional positive regard, promoting the autonomy of our clients if we're in a therapeutic relationship, but I would say in a mentoring relationship, promoting that autonomy. And so as a mentor, it's really important for me to always keep my mentees' values and and their goals in the forefront of my mind. And if not in the forefront of their mind, I want to draw that out. And I'll have I've had mentees who have asked specifically, what do you think I should do with? And this this will be more in the mentoring relationship. And I I will say, Well, let's talk about what you would like to do.

unknown 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

And I, you know, and sometimes um I'm thinking of one Menti in particular who will say, I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say that. But but I'm not saying that to deflect or because I don't have an answer. I mean, I I have lots of opinions on what I think people should.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

But it's not really my place to create your path forward. I I want to know what it's important to you, and then I want to help support that. I think that's a good segue into the some of the differences between mentoring and advising. It's not so open-ended, like wow.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

It's more directed.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

It is, yeah. It's not like, well, I don't know what courses do you take. It's you know, here's our curriculum.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

What you have to do.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Here's what you have to do. Here's what I'm recommending that you do so that you can finish the program in two years. Here are the days and times the courses are offered. Here's my advice if you want to be here two days a week. It's very task-oriented, it's more formal, it's structured. It happens at certain times, registration times. Um, it helps our students meet their degree requirements. Mentorship, it's it's a little bit more open, it's more focused on career goals, professional identity, developing maybe some confidence in becoming a counselor or even finding their way. And it may also help a student determine that that there's a different career path for them. So if if counseling isn't the fit, I've had students who started the program and then determined it wasn't the fit for them, and there would be a better pathway. And so in a mentoring role, I always seek to keep the student, the person in the forefront. And About twisting someone's arm to become a counselor, it's about helping them support and reach their goal. So that's that's where I see the kind of the differences.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Next question is is really similar, and it came from actually one of our student members of the podcast team. So I think it's relevant to maybe any like newer professionals or student listeners that we have. Like, can you help people differentiate the difference between mentorship and supervision?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I appreciate always I always appreciate questions from students, and that's a good way of grounding myself as a faculty member on the things that I should be talking about and covering. And so thinking about how to differentiate mentorship from supervision, I I think a maybe a quicker, easy way of thinking about that is with mentorship, it's who do I want, who do I want to become? It's much more broad. For supervision, it's am I practicing competently and ethically? So supervision is much more focused on skills, not that mentorship is not, but supervision is going to focus on oversight of clinical work, the development for remediation of specific clinical skills, your documentation, your treatment planning, your diagnosis, all of these very task-oriented, you know, supervision. Also like advising, eminent structure, if it's typically an hour a week, time limited based on being a practical internship student or supervision post master's degree. Yeah. And then going back to mentor mentorship, it's some of what we talked about before. It's more per professional growth, it's broad. And it it it doesn't have to be time limited. You could have a mentor for your entire life. You could have also have a mentor for certain particular areas of your life.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

When you think about we all where I'll speak for myself, there's there's certain people that I connect with, but they're for different types of topics. It's not like this is my one mentor, and you must have all you must have all the answers. There's certain folks that I may go to to seek advice or mentorship for certain areas versus versus others. In clinical supervision, you're not, you know, it's not a buffet of different people you're talking to your club talking about in your place.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Well, and quite literally, it sounds like supervision is very practical, right? Like it's about the the practical pieces where maybe the mentorship is more the meaning-making value-oriented parts too. Not that that might not come up in supervision, because it can, right? But that that it's broader and allowed to be a little dynamic. I I don't know. It's the word that was coming to mind. Like we can, it can be open to so many things for supervision. Like you said, is so structured.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, I agree. It's much more flexible. We we've done a from time to time, we'll have a mentorship program within our counseling graduate program at Youngstone State University. In our Kai Sigmiota chapter, we'll organize that.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

We'll pair up second-year students with the first-year students. Second-year students are the mentors, first-year students are the mentees. And it's not always an exact fit. You'll have some students that want more like mentorship. And so that can be a great fit for our second-year students. They want that type of mentorship. But then other students that just need like they don't need to meet all the time. Second year students that are saying, like, I, you know, let's meet. Let me mentor you. And the first year student may feel, you know, like, uh, well, let me just check in from time to time. So that's what's nice about the mentorship relationship is there is that flexibility with vision. You're meeting every week. It's not just, let me just check in whenever I feel like it.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

I know we touched on this a little bit in some of the earlier questions, but you know, mentorship can be or feel for some people like at the surface, maybe it's like a little one-directional, like that the mentor, the seasoned professional, or the older student is like pouring into the emerging one, the mentee. But you've been doing this for decades. So what have you learned from your students in the opposite direction?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Well, the relationship, as you indicated, it's it's never one directional. Um for me, what what came to mind immediately was keeping current in what's important to my students and what I need to be addressing as a counselor educator, as a as a professor. And uh I I never I never want to become disconnected from what's important to the next generation of counselors. And so I like the idea of keeping in mind recognizing that there's so much that I don't know, and there's so many, there's just so much that could be outside of my own awareness. And so being able to have these conversations, these mentorship relationships, whether it's with my students at Yangstown State University, or if it's with individuals within Chai Sigma IOTA, who are some of them are students, but others of them are counselor educators who are looking for mentorship. And so through those relationships, I'm able to just I think stay more connected regarding new perspectives, things that are challenging individuals, different ways of think seeing things. Maybe I didn't see it that way when I when I was in their place.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Now it's something that I should be seeing and viewing, and so for me it it's a way to to stay connected. Yeah. And I think the other thing that I'll I'll say when you and maybe I touched on that a little bit, but it provides me with a lot of hope and yeah, positive vibes for our profession where things are going. Like seeing this next generation of counselors, I am so excited for our field and uh and the folks that we're graduating and we're putting into our community. And I want to be a part of that. I always want to be a part of that.

unknown 30:21

Yeah.

How To Find A Mentor

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Yeah. This is something that I feel like I like that you're bringing up hope. And I and I think like when we think about mentees and maybe even mentors like, especially in our profession presently, it's much needed. When I was in grad school, I think it was something where there was maybe some fear about approaching someone, or you know, like I know I had maybe like people ahead of me in the program that had mentors that were like protective of their mentors. Like you can't take, like, they can't take on another mentee, like leave it be. So for those who, you know, maybe have similar fears or or just aren't certain about how to find a mentor, they just haven't found one yet. Those counselors are counselors in training who don't like know what to do. What are your recommendations for seeking mentorship and getting this kind of guidance?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

It's a great question. And it's a very practical one, too. And I think it's one that a lot of students and even professionals would ask.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

I I'll start by saying don't overcomplicate it. It there doesn't have to be a formal mentorship title. It just begins with a conversation and a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

There are formal mentoring structures that exist in a number of professional associations. And I really I support those and I'm involved in those, and I think those those work really well. But a lot of student professionals, they're not involved in those types of like formal, let me sign up for it, formal structure. So for individuals in general, I would say just look for someone whose work you value, or someone whose presence the way they are, you feel like you could connect with that person. Maybe someone you've heard speak at a conference, someone who, you know, was introduced to you, or if they weren't introduced to you, just go ahead and introduce yourself to them. I can't speak for anybody other than myself. But I would say that we think the majority of the folks in our profession really enjoy and appreciate when someone comes up to them and says, Hey, I I read one of your articles, or I attended your presentation, or whatever, and I just wanted to introduce myself to you and connect. And I've had I've had students do that and professionals do that with me. I've also done that with other folks that I've wanted to meet. And it does, you know, it can feel a little awkward sometimes. And so then I, you know, you think of like, how do I start this conversation? But I I think you could just you know, just start the relationship. Mentoring mentorship starts just with that role, yeah. And then it may evolve into do you think it would be okay if we have a brief meeting sometime? I just want something I'm interested in, and I know you have interest in that. Would that be okay? I think nine times out of ten, that person that you have approached will say yes. But you gotta put yourself out there. Take a risk, do it.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Yes, yes. You're reminding me of a tip. We recently had an episode of Let's Unpack That about conference readiness, because the ACA national conference was just held here in Ohio. And uh, one of the tips was sort of like this like grounded kind of narrative approach to saying, like, if you're afraid to introduce yourself to someone or do that, that you also narrate it, like that I'm working on introducing myself to people at conferences. So I wanted to say, I really enjoyed your presentation. I'm Marissa, you know, like, and letting people know, like that just like announcing it can sometimes help you stay a little bit more grounded that, like, well, I'm working on this. And so, like, if I fumble a little, it's okay because you're telling them, I'm just working on it. It helps maybe reduce the barrier, the mental barrier, or if it block for just doing it.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

It's very authentic too, and people appreciate that and respond, respond well. And I think also, um, yeah, even just talking with other friends in the program, maybe they they would be able to connect you to someone that that could serve in that role, talking to other professionals if you're a practicing counselor, able to talk about what you want. And when you when you speak it, you know, it there's a way that hopefully you'll be able to make it. I just don't as you as we are adults, making friends, you know, it it can be required as a kid, but it's not like all of a sudden you become an adult. Now it's easy. So working through some of that awkwardness. I think I really like what you said as far as just being genuine, being honest, and and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and then you just move on and try with someone else.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Well, and that's you know, I know in supervision there's some the concept of like the parallel process, right? And that it's sort of similar in this regard that you know I in informed consent will always tell clients, like, you're the consumer and we may vibe well, but if we don't, like it's okay. You're allowed to like seek another counselor if you feel like she's nice enough, but we're not connecting in the way that that I want. Like it can be the same when you're a mentee seeking or networking, like meeting people is beneficial. Not everyone you meet will feel like someone that you want to like seek guidance from, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Not everyone has to be a fit.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

No, and not everybody will be a fit. I I'd like to just mention one more thing that came to mind on that. When you think about people in your own life, like there's people that are natural connectors, like just good at starting conversations, they're just good at saying, you know, let me introduce you to this person right here. Yeah. You're just great at making those connections. And so if you have someone like that in your life, you could share that you're looking to make more connections, or if you're looking to connect with someone in particular, you know, you don't have to do it alone either. Lean on connection-friendly can help to you.

Why Chi Sigma Iota Matters

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Yeah, wow. So you've mentioned Kaisig Mayota, CSI, previously in this conversation, and you're currently serving as president of CSI International, which is a counseling honor society, and Mr. Marks their 40th anniversary. So mind telling listeners who may not be familiar with Kai Sig Mayota what it is and why counseling students should care about maybe their membership beyond just it being a line on the resume?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Sure. Kaisig Myota is the academic and professional honor society for counselors. It's the only honor society established solely for professional counselors. So you can think of school counselors, clinical, mental health counselors, college counselors, addiction counselors. And it was established 40 years ago. And it provides, there's a number of benefits for CSI, but probably the one that, well, in the context of our conversation, one of the best benefits is the connection that it provides between students in the program. So right now we have, I think, over 400, we've chartered over 470 chapters at universities around the country. And we have some international chapters as well. We've inducted over a hundred and we want to say member. That is a lot of professional counselors. And so by connecting to CSI, you become part of a larger community, a larger community beyond your university, beyond your state, within your university, which is typically when students join. We do have we do have professionals who didn't join as students, students join later as professionals, but most join when they're students in the program. You become connected to other students in your your program through an active CSI chapter. I I've when I've talked with other counselor educators, we've mentioned to them that having an active, strong CSI chapter at your within your counselor education program is one of the most important things you can do for the for the health of your program. An active chapter will offer professional development workshops for our students. As counselor educators, we can't cover everything in our courses.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

And there's things that maybe we're not covering that our students are interested in, and maybe we should be covering them. But with a CSI chapter, you're it's led by counseling students, and so they can take leadership initiative regarding bringing in speakers to talk about topics and to provide training on things that haven't been covered or was covered, but just touched on, and they're really interested in learning more deeply about it. A strong CS After will be connected to the community, so providing community service activities. And so that's a way for you to serve your community. And when you do something like that, you know, you're you're gonna make relationships with other classmates. And yeah, you know, when I was a master's student, I drove to campus, I hunted for a parking spot, uh, you know, and then I was up my class and and I was out the door. And yeah, for me, it was it was being asked to be a part of a CSI chapter. Really developed relationships. I was disconnected. I wanted to be connected, but I wasn't really sure how to connect. Um because everybody, you know, I would see, and you'd go to your class, and then I work full-time. And I remember it was actually Dr. Sophie Osborne, who I mentioned earlier. He said, We're having a CSI meeting. Would you like to come to it? And again, I didn't I didn't know what CFI stood for, but I thought, you know what? I don't know what it is, but I want connection, I want mentorship. So yeah, yeah, I'll show up half an hour early before my class and and be a part of it. And then she said, Yeah, do you want to be our archivist? And I said, again, not really sure what was involved, but I wanted that connection. So so the CSI chapters that provide connection with other students programmed. Well, let me just say that it provides the opportunity for a connection beyond CSI, much more broadly, there's scholarships involved. There's a journal, there's a regular magazine, there's leadership opportunities, or there's internship and fellowship opportunities. There's there's many additional uh ways of growing as a professional. There's a reduced professional liability insurance. If you're a CSI member, you can get it that way. There's a lot of uh it's just a lot that's that's a part of it, much more than just your resume.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah. Are there any other like concrete opportunities that we miss, like scholarships, grants? You already mentioned like the leadership pathways that exist, and obviously like that opportunity for connection, I think, is very meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Sure. Every year, CSI host something called CSI Days, and it's offered every October. What we do is we offer it online one year in the even years, and then in person in the odd years. So it can be expensive for students to travel to conferences and engage that way. And so, you know, if you'd like to participate in the programming for CSI Days, which includes workshops, our business meetings, our award ceremonies, connection opportunities, you can do that uh this year, actually in October. And it'll be online, just easy and accessible. And then next year, CSI Days will Be in person. And we we've had the opportunity to collaborate with ACES. Um and so we enjoy that partnership. And so it has been in conjunction with the ACES conference. So it's not only ACES is the association for counselor education and supervision. So it's not just connecting with other honor society members, but it's also connecting with a larger counselor education part.

Preserving Counseling History And Archives

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned your role as the archivist. And when we were preparing for this interview, we also learned like that you have a passion for documenting history of counseling programs and the profession and have created historical documents marking 40th, 50th, 55th anniversary of Youngstown State University's counseling program. Why does preserving that history matter to you? And what do you think gets lost when a profession doesn't know its own story?

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Well, I I do enjoy archiving, which may not sound incredibly exciting, but maybe I can share why I think it's important. As a profession, and I'll mention this to our to my students, your profession, it didn't just like pop out of the ground or your license, your counseling license didn't fall out of the sky. Developing that um pride and ownership in our profession.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

And it's a way of helping the like you know, current counselors, but also the our students and next generation of counselors understand the importance of caring for the profession and maintaining it. And so, you know, some sometimes they'll folks will use the the phrase like grow our profession. And when you grow, I think of a garden or a flower bed or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

There were there were a lot of individuals who helped grow our profession. I have a license, you have a license. We have, you know, careers because of individuals who are retired and some have passed away that really, really hard to grow the profession.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

And so just like with a garden, you have to continue to tend it. You to be able to make sure that it continues to bear fruit and bearing fruiting, you know, the counselors we produced and the the good work that they do in the community caring for our clients and and students. And so by being able to understand the story of uh who we are, uh who we were, where we came from, and where we're going, that story provides um the context for what we you know what we need to be doing. Putin.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

Yeah, yeah. Speaking to someone who loves watching like documentaries and reading biographies. So you don't know if every listener is that way, but I think even as counselor, like histories matter to us, right? Like we take client history, we should take like the professional history. And in your professional career, you've also served as OCA archivist and helped launch to digital a digital archive of OCA materials through the YOC library. Can you talk about that project a little bit more? What's in it, why it was important for you to preserve and what you hope like our future counselors take from having access to this history?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Sure, sure. So this that project came out of something I was doing at Youngstown State University, just documenting our own program history.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

And so with that, the idea behind that was how do we how do we advocate for our program? How do we have a conversation about our program within the context of our university and within our community? And to really have that conversation, it's important to be able to craft a story of who we are. It's not just uh like we need more resources. Don't you know valuable, we need more resources? That's not very not very compelling. Everybody's asking for resources.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

But when stakeholders, decision makers, when they really understand your story, just like we want to understand the story of our clients, when folks understand who we are, what's important to us, what we've contributed, what we can do as uh as a as a body, as a program, it makes our her case much more compelling for the work that we do. So sprung out of that, and this this was several years ago, I was serving as the OCA archivist. And in that role, I was able to formulate an agreement with OCA and with YSV to establish you know an archive, a digital art. And so over the past 10 years, I'm no longer the archivist, but over the past 10 years, I've continued, just because I enjoy it, continued to collect and build the resources within that art so that it could serve as a resource for the Ohio Counseling Association and just, you know, individuals in general. And one of the important um things about it being faith at a university and it and it's a officially cataloged archive. So it's you know, it's not just a box of materials that I have under my desk or something you know someone else has on their computer. Once it's out there, it's it's publicly accessible, it's it's searchable, and the archive will, you know, will you know exist beyond me and and and all of us. And so it's something that that continues to live. Well and is available.

Ohio’s Impact On Counseling Identity

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. It will live on, like, to show the legacy of our profession and our organization. Former OCA president, now leading the International Honor Society, you've had a lot of access to view how Ohio counselors have shaped national conversations. What's a piece of Ohio counseling history that you think deserves more recognition or celebration?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

So I'm proud and just feel very fortunate to have grown up and become a counselor in the state of Ohio. Ohio has played a leadership role in shaping counselor life and ship, professional identity. We were in early counseling licensure state. And I believe in 1984 is when licensure happened in Ohio. We were the first state where CSI was established to the first CSI chapter, Counseling Honor Society chapter was at Ohio University. We were one of the first states to require hay cremp accreditation for counseling programs for folks to be licensed as counselors. And so being able to, it's important, I think, to be able to celebrate that and understand that.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Wow. I remember being a counselor, counseling student, and you may also remember this, but there were a number of different changes. Remember being a master's student and being told in class there's a change happening now. And for your practicum and internship, I think I may have been going into practicum and practicum and internship, you must be supervised by a licensed professional counselor. Because when things started, it uh you know, it was a little bit more open. And so for your supervision, not not for your like work supervision, but there was there were some you know concerns. Are is there enough licensed professional counselors to supervise us? What will we, you know, right do? But it was a way like, you know, you think of a profession like I use the term growing before, but you know, when you when you're growing up, you're making the visions, you're you're kind of uh, you know, uh finding your way, trying to take ownership for the profession. So being able to see that and see all of the wonderful things that um counselors, counselor educators, practicing counselors have done such a strong profession.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Really?

SPEAKER_00 54:40

And at the center of that has been the Ohio Counseling Association, starting in 1968, or officially chartered in 1968. They've they've been able to be that kind of core band that that has connected you know, counselors to them, you know, kind of come back together, get their resources, and then go off and advocate counseling profession. And that that Ohio Counseling Association thread has supported these changes, you know, and counselor licensed share of OCA was at the heart of supporting the counselors who were advocating it for it for many years, and then most celebrate from the law was yeah, all of that and more should be celebrated.

Permission To Grow And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_03 55:30

Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate all of what you had to say, and my mind kept going to like this is you know, when you said the it's the idea of like growing up, I was thinking of like identity formation and coming into our own. And that's why some of these changes have happened, because like we're like integrating more aspects of our professional identity, like like establishing like our independence from maybe some of the the other professions that we can still collaborate with, but that we are also like acknowledging some separate identity from. And it came back to the question that you asked when you said, like, this is the difference between mentorship and supervision of like, who do I want to become? And so that maybe we were asking those questions as we formed an identity, but that Ohio has such a rich, strong professional identity and has for such such a time. And so, like, who are we? Who do we want to become has kind of been at the forefront of that conversation? So I think that that thread is woven too, right? These mentorship questions still have like their their place in the larger conversation about who we are as a profession. Counseling students listening to this episode, or maybe they're like newly licensed, they're in practicum. What's one piece of mentorship advice you would want them to carry forward in their career?

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Give yourself permission to grow. You're not supposed to know everything yet. You don't have to be perfect. The best counselors, the best people, well, the friends that I know are the ones who remain humble, reflective, and open to learning throughout their careers. Sometimes students will say, Do I have to write another reflection paper? And then when they graduate and they work in the field, they'll say, you know what? I see why we were reflecting. And so just it's okay to not have it all figured out. And that's why being able to connect to a mentor uh can be important. You're able to be vulnerable, authentic, share what you don't, you know, you're not uh sure about yet, and which can be maybe even different than your clinical supervisor, which may be your agency supervisor. So if you're having doubts or you're nervous about certain things, or maybe you're deciding that, you know, you're gonna go take your journey in a different path.

unknown 58:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Although finding that mentor is gonna be helpful for you. So yeah, leave yourself room to grow.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

Yeah, love that. So if you've listened to this episode, or this not this episode, if you've listened to this podcast before, you've probably heard this question, but we ask it on every episode. Name of our podcast is Ohio Counsel Conversations. What important conversations do you think counseling professionals should be having with each other and or their clients here in Ohio?

SPEAKER_00 58:48

It's a great question. One of the conversations that is of interest to me, and it's also based on where I'm at and what I do, is how do we mentor undergraduate students to see counseling as a career choice? How do we help undergraduate students, and you could also even pink high school students, develop an identity, a counselor identity, and really be talking about kind of moving into our profession. So our profession is unique in that you know, we we take students from a number of different fields. Education, communication, criminal justice, all of these different fields. And that I think is uh strength of our of our profession. But on the other hand, there's not a natural undergraduate feeder into our program, like psychology moving forward, social work moving forward. So I'm really interested in how we can cultivate and grow future counselors at the uh, you know, the first year undergraduate student level, sophomore senior level. And what can we do to show them that this is a pathway and could be something that would be an engaging career and uh those seeds early on?

Closing And How To Connect

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

Yeah, yeah. My wheels are turning. That the career counseling frame full circle, coming back to like, yes, that's excellent. Yeah. Well, Dr. Pratubnak, this was such a rich conversation, so many great takeaways. And just want to thank you for sharing your time with us and your wisdom, your experiences, your heart for the profession is really wonderful. And we're so grateful for you to share it with us and our listeners today.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me to be a part of the podcast in Jordan.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

Of course, of course. To everyone tuning in, whether you're a student figuring out your next step, a counselor looking to give back, or someone who just needed a reminder of why you chose this field, I hope this episode gave you something to hold on to. If you want to learn more about Chi Sig Mayota, explore membership opportunities, or connect with Dr. Prativnak's work, we'll have links in the show notes. And if you have a story to tell, we want to hear from you. You can email us at ohiocounseling conversations at gmail.com or connect with us on OCA socials.