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Ohio Counseling Conversations
Ohio Counseling Conversations
Let's Unpack That #13: The Playlist Nobody Prescribed
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A three-minute song can do something a 50-minute conversation struggles to pull off: it tells the truth fast. We’re exploring “accidental music therapy,” the tracks that were never designed to teach counseling skills, yet somehow nail grief, self-compassion, boundaries, identity, and resilience with a few lines and a melody that sticks. To be clear, this is not a replacement for counseling, and it’s not music therapy as a credentialed clinical discipline. It’s the pop culture side of mental health and why certain songs feel like emotional permission.
We start with the big question: why do some songs land so hard? From “Vienna” to “Never Grow Up,” “Landslide,” and “Lose You To Love Me,” we talk about how music can hold the complexity of loss, transition, and growing up. Then we shift into self-worth and the inner critic with songs like “Born This Way,” “Who Says,” and “That I Would Be Good,” using lyrics as a practical bridge when it’s hard to find your own words.
From there, we connect the playlist to therapy frameworks and real skills: resilience and post-traumatic growth, ACT ideas like cognitive diffusion and psychological flexibility, and parts work vibes inspired by “Surface Pressure” and “Anti-Hero.” We also dig into nervous system regulation and mindfulness, including why singing can be grounding and why “Weightless” by Marconi Union stands out with actual anxiety-reduction research behind it.
If you’ve ever felt seen by a chorus at exactly the right moment, you’re not alone. Listen, grab the playlist link in the show notes, then subscribe, share with a colleague or friend, and leave a review so more people can find the songs that help them heal.
What do you think? Send us your questions or topics you'd like us to unpack!
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If you’re a counselor in Ohio and would like to get involved as part of production or as a guest, or know someone who might be interested, please email us at ohiocounselingconversations@gmail.com!
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Victoria Frazier & Marisa Cargill
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill and Victoria Frazier
·Editing by Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Welcome And The Big Idea
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Let's Unpack That, a short form segment from Ohio Counseling Conversations, where we dig into the topics, tools, and truths that shape our work as counselors. Whether it's a trending issue, a clinical insight, or something we've all been thinking about, we're here to process it together.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to Let's Unpack That, the podcast where we take things you're already thinking about and give them a little clinical context, a lot of honesty, and hopefully a few laughs along the way. I'm Dr.
SPEAKER_01Marissa Cargill. And I'm Victoria Frasier. And today we're doing something a little different and honestly really fun. I'm really excited about this episode.
SPEAKER_02Yes, me too. We're talking about music today, specifically songs that kind of have been accidentally doing the work of counseling like this whole time. They just hit, but nobody prescribed them.
SPEAKER_01One of the things I love about talking music with clients is that it doesn't take an appointment. It doesn't cost any money. You can find them for free. It's just you and your headphones and music that is really regulating or just impacts us in different ways. I think it's so fun to talk about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So here's the concept. We're calling it exactly what it is. It's accidental music therapy. Songs that are written like that exist outside of this space, not in a graduate program. They weren't designed to teach a clinical concept. And yet sometimes sometimes, not sometimes, just a lot of times, somehow they nail things like these concepts of self-compassion or setting a boundary. They help cope with or really speak the words of grief, emotional regulation, and even more. And sometimes better than some textbooks we could name.
SPEAKER_01And I love a textbook. We're not throwing shade at textbooks. Or are we? I mean, maybe a maybe a little. But what we're really doing today is unpacking why this happens, what it means for us as counselors and as humans. And because you all showed up for us, we are weaving in your submissions throughout the episode that you sent us on social media.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. We put a call out on social media asking our community, like what songs accidentally taught you a counseling concept, and you delivered. So buckle up, this is the playlist nobody prescribed. Let's unpack that. So, first, let's really clarify this is not a replacement for counseling. And we want to be really respectful that music therapy exists as its own entity and credential clinical discipline. This is not that. What we're really trying to do today is pose this central question: why do certain songs land so hard or hit just right emotionally? And is there something meaningful happening there? So that's really what we're trying to do today, and really hit the points that like people experience hearing a song, and then it somehow feels like more understood. Similarly, like maybe how music can speak
Not Music Therapy, Still Meaningful
SPEAKER_02similar emotional language, like where music and counseling can kind of align in those languages. Again, not trying to say this is music therapy. That's its own brief distinction and clinical discipline. This is we're exploring more the pop culture side of things and how, you know, we as counselors might be able to utilize some of this in our own practice. So, first things first, we're really gonna dig into a lot of the songs and like themes or concepts. And so, Tori, I'm gonna toss it to you to maybe kick this off and we'll kind of go through these and mention some songs. This is a pretty long playlist that we're gonna share with you all in the show notes, the link to the playlist, and it might be a continuing growing, living, breathing playlist that we add to, especially after the show, but that we want to hit on some that maybe stood out to us, especially with those themes. So, Tori, where do you want to kick it off?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess that when we first started talking about this episode, I had a really instant answer of what song I talked about the most. As frequent listeners, now I work a lot with kids in teens, and especially for my teens, I talk a lot about Vienna by Billy Joel. For anyone who hasn't heard that song, first of all, it's a beautiful song, and I highly recommend you listen to it. But it is a lot about the feeling of like rushing through life and and needing to slow down and and look around at what's around you. I heard that song for the first time when I was like a child, and I watched 13 Going on 30, which is about a girl who wishes to be 30 when she's 13, and she like realizes she messed
Slow Down With Vienna
SPEAKER_01up. And she does get to marry Mark Ruffalo, but you know, otherwise she messed up a lot. And that song, I remember I was probably like eight years old, and I was like, Oh my god, I'm rushing through my life. And I love sharing that song, especially with my high schoolers who are getting ready to graduate and like go to college or like sophomore year could be a really busy time. And and I feel like I'm sometimes talking to to children who want to be like 35 with a mortgage, and I I love that song, and it reminds us to kind of like slow down and like it's okay to be a young person, it's okay to figure things out. Yeah, let this time be that time for you.
SPEAKER_02Like let it referencing another song of Let It Be. But like Let It Be Its Time, yeah. Gosh, I that kind of loops me into I think for me, music has always been somewhat of like a nostalgia-based thing. And even with that, like certain songs that are nostalgic to me today that maybe don't have a lot of therapeutic concepts, like may feel like you you feel that tinge of comfort, but like maybe there's grief about days gone by. And so I think that kind of leads me to think about one of the bigger themes that maybe came out in some songs that were shared with us were songs about grief and loss, and how like they really can capture the complexity of that experience and whether it's like loss of
Grief Songs That Tell The Truth
SPEAKER_02a relationship, loss of a person, loss of even like maybe to the point of Vienna. Vienna doesn't necessarily speak to that perfectly, but that there's loss of that someday that will that stage of life might be gone. What songs maybe in that category or under that umbrella hit something for you?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. I feel like we could do two hours on this category by itself. One that comes up a lot for me, not to keep it in the like nostalgia grief area, is Never Grow Up by Taylor Swift. I it's a really strange week in my office if I don't talk about Taylor Swift with clients like several times over. But that song, there it it talks about, you know, like don't lose the things that make you happy, don't lose the things that created meaning in your life when you were younger, like spending time with your mom or like being embarrassed when your mom drops you off to hang out with friends, like when you're a teen. And that song, I listen to that song the first night I always have in a new apartment or like a new place of where I'm living. And I don't know, maybe it's it's maybe not my most like uplifting choice I could do, but um, especially in that context, like that song just always makes me cry and it feels like it's like yeah, a really good companion in that way. Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that one is a real tear jerker. I feel like anytime like a young person in my life has a birthday, I'm oh my gosh, like how is it possible that my nephew, you know, who was born my last semester of undergrad is now in in undergrad himself? Like, what? How? And so yeah, that's that hits a lot. Some of the songs that stuck out to me on that under that umbrella were more like the post-relationship grief, which just gonna be really transparent. Probably speaks to some of my own personal healing and like where it goes, just self-disclosing. But yeah, and I remember Selena Gomez, Pat Princess, Selena Gomez came out with Lucy to love me around the time I was going through a breakup. And I remember feeling this sort of help see me reclaim myself a little bit. I was, I had these rose-colored uh tongue twister there. She talks about rose-colored glasses, all distorted. And I thought, yeah, sometimes we feel that after a relationship, I was like really only seeing positive things and that she identifies, I needed to lose you to love me. I don't think that's true for every person. It is nuanced, but it is really, I'm reclaiming myself. I it has a sad, somber tone to it, the music itself, but the lyrics I think do say, I'm good now. This chapter's close, and I'm like, I'm good. You stay there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, which I appreciate. No, I I love that song. I feel like we're not talking about Selena Gomez enough in just like everyday life. I feel like you know what?
SPEAKER_02She shows up on the playlist more than once. So I'm I she might be talked about even more today, just for reference. Oh my gosh, I love more to come. Um stay tuned.
SPEAKER_01I think the other song that really stood out to me when we were making the playlist when we think about like grief and loss is Landslide by Fleetwood Mac. I'm a huge like Fleetwood Mac girl. I'm probably more of a Stevie Nicks girl. We don't have to get into it. But I that song, I anytime I hear it in anything, like any movie, when I hear it in the car, I'm filled with like such sense of like I don't know that I would call it like fear of aging, but just like acknowledgement of time passing and how things change. And it's not always a bad thing, right? Like we we grow and we change and and we can move on to greener pastures and things, but I also think like even in hard times, there are things you're gonna miss. And so that song, I don't know, that song has also kind of been like a companion for me as grown in age. Not that I'm like wisened and and you know, crinkly, but I love that song. And I've I've talked about that song with Clydes before.
SPEAKER_02I think that's like an interesting song. I'm fairly certain actually, I probably knew the chicks cover to that song prior to like the Fleetwood Mac version, but it also entered my life like when I was still kind of a younger person, like maybe high school, college, like undergrad emerging adults, perhaps. And I think it speaks to like when songs like that can speak to someone who's maybe not lived that. It also is just good at helping someone feel what that's like. And so crafted like such a perfect song. There are more songs on this list, and like I said earlier, we're gonna have a playlist that's linked in the show notes. In the interest of time, we don't want to spend, we could do a whole episode on grief songs, and maybe that's something for future episodes, but we wanted to hit a few different areas. The next sort of umbrella that we had identified a lot of the songs or themes that came from them were more about self-compassion and self-worth. And these are songs that maybe help embody that work where we're trying to be kind to ourselves and be more accepting. And I wondered if any songs in this category really struck anything for you, Tori, or spoke to you.
SPEAKER_01I love this category. I think it might be my favorite category, like that we talked about of songs. I think a lot of the music I I kind of gravitate towards a lot of the time is is kind of like uplifting self-love kind of stuff. Born this way by Lady Gaga ended up
Self-Worth Anthems And Inner Critic
SPEAKER_01in like a couple categories. That song changed lives, like genuinely. It really did. Like, I've been obsessed with that song my whole life, and I will be until it ends. And I this is such a weird poll, but like I remember on the episode of Glee where they did all it was like the first like Lady Gaga episode, and they were born this way. And they're are you are you gleek? Are you familiar?
SPEAKER_02I am like I watched it live weekly, but I have to say that was so long ago that I may not remember every episode.
SPEAKER_01I was also there live, but it's seared into my brain in a way. I think it affected my development. But they sing Born This Way, and they're all wearing t-shirts of things that make them insecure, and it's really about who they are and you know, taking ownership of those things. I will also say there's one of the greatest jokes of all time where Britney tries to get Santana a shirt that says lesbian, but it says Lebanese on it. And that that that does make me laugh to this day. But I I love that I I don't know that I can endorse the whole episode. I don't remember the whole episode, but I love that specific glee performance, not to be like I love the glee version of for this one.
SPEAKER_02Listen, I like a lot of glee versions of songs. It's I think that's not a bad thing. They have they had great voices, they were not cast just because they were like good at one thing, they were good at multiple things, and singing was one of them. So I endorse it for that validation.
SPEAKER_01I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02So a few of them on the list, I have to give just a few shout-outs and honorable mentions. First, I want to it is an incredible song, and so I do not want to make light of it, but The Greatest Love of All by Whitney Houston has been shared in this category. And certainly, if you're not super familiar with this song, she is talking about she learned the greatest love of all was like inside of her that there was that was the greatest love of all. My honorable mention for this is that it was my Dare graduation song in fifth grade per my fifth grade teachers choosing, which asking 25 fifth graders to sing a song that Whitney Houston, arguably one of the greatest singers of all time, who has pretty large vocal range, it was a choice. It was a choice, but as such, I know every word to that song and I do admire it. But it just makes me giggle a little bit when think or hear about that song because it's got that poor memory for me.
SPEAKER_01You're speechless? There's nothing I wouldn't give to see your fifth grade perform it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't think my family has video of it, but I'm sure that it has to exist somewhere in the universe. I don't know who. If you went to my grade school and you're listening to this and DM us, because that could be a funny reel. I would be forever in your debt. So here's the thing: it is really a good song about saying I decided I'm not gonna walk in other people's shadows. If I fail, if I succeed, at least I live as I believe. Because the greatest love of all is happening. Here, okay. So honorable mention, shout out Whitney. We love you. I told you she was on the list again. Selena Gomez. Who says, for those of you who might not be familiar with this song is again another pop princess. I'm trying to look 2011. I was gonna say early aughts. I'm a little off there. Okay. So this is a little after undergrad, but I what I love about this is because it's a pop song, the lyrics are very simple, but I do think that they're profound. And I'm not gonna lie that I have actually quoted it to clients before, especially clients who will get the reference because there's this idea of who says you're not worth it, who says you're not beautiful, who says you're not perfect. And then when I've used this reference, it's a good, I think, testament to say who says, Can you tell me who said that? Because I think it speaks to the theme of when we're asking people about their internal monologue, we generally can sense that maybe that wasn't actually their voice, it came from somewhere else, like a caregiver or oftentimes society, and that there are ways to incorporate that. Who said that? Can you tell me who said that? And I very much like this because I think it helps maybe challenge and disrupt some of those negative beliefs and that inner critic. And then lastly, I had never heard this song before. I went just on some research and discovery and went on some Reddit threads about this kind of topic as well. And they shared this Alanis Morris set song that I would be good. And perhaps I have heard it and it's just been a long time and I didn't remember it. But the lyrics just spoke so well to me. And I'm not gonna read all of them, but just the first kind of that I would be good even if I did nothing. That I would be good even if I got the thumbs down, that I would be good if I got and stayed sick, that I would be good even if I gained 10 pounds. And it was like basically saying that I don't have to be defined by these other things. I am inherently worthy and good. And that means I don't know, that felt like a like a warm hug kind of thing of helping people reframe that so that they could have compassion and recognize regardless of your productivity, regardless of how well you do at something, you're still inherently worthy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love that. I talk so much about like inherent self-worth or like like just worth you don't have to earn with clients. I'm gonna put that in my repertoire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I and again, I wish it was easier to, I guess on the playlist you can access lyrics pretty easily, but it's a short one, but it's the whole theme of the song that I would be good, that I would be fine is the second frame, even if that I would be loved, even when and then circles back to that I would be good. And so I'm just like, yeah, Alanis, thank you. Yeah, I love that true gem there. So our next umbrella is more about resilience and post-traumatic growth. And again, tons of songs that kind of fall into here about surviving and finding strength and growing through adversity or tough times. What stuck out to you on this list?
SPEAKER_01Okay, confession. The song I'm about to talk about isn't on the playlist as of right now, but we're going to have to add it. And it is Cinderella by the Cheetah Girls. Okay. Are you familiar?
SPEAKER_02That's a little past my generation. So tell me. I can't wait to hear.
SPEAKER_01First of all, the Cheetah Girls are forever in my heart. And I was I was a Cheetah girl. Like I loved
Resilience And Post-Traumatic Growth
SPEAKER_01Cheetahs. But Cinderella, Cinderella was my favorite Disney princess too when I was younger. But the the Cinderella by the Cheetah Girls is like I don't I don't want to be like Cinderella sitting in a dark hole, dusty cellar, waiting for somebody to come and set me free. And it's like I can be my own like person that stands up for myself. Like I can rescue myself. I don't need like I don't need I don't require someone else to do it for me. And I think hearing that message, granted, situated, like I don't know, I think Che Girls has a lot of life at lessons in it, but I think hearing that message as a young person who did at one point really, like that was my girl, Cinderella. Like hearing that reframe of the song was really impactful for me. And sometimes when I'm like I this is a call to to the gods of music to put the original recording of Cinderella on Spotify because as far as I'm aware, you can only get the live concert version, which is fine, but I don't think Raven Simone is on it. So like there's a lot to take in. But, anyways, yes, I love that song, and I still listen to it when I'm having like off days. What what resilient songs come up for you?
SPEAKER_02Listen, probably of some of the categories, like this is one where I had really a lot of trouble because I am like, well, I like all of these songs and could listen to these. I feel bad because they didn't highlight it. So another honorable mention to Whitney and Mariah this time in the duet of There Can Be Miracles and You Believe from the Prince of Egypt soundtrack. I have used that in group work before for people in recovery. The it's in the title, it's about really believing. And then my one of my favorite lyrics is though hope is frail, it's hard to kill. And I think that's just a I'm gonna I'm getting teary-eyed because I love music and I feel so much I'm a very sentimental person when it comes to this. But I think that piece is just it can speak to the human experience. Hope can be frail, but it's like it's hard to say it's gone. And so I I don't know. That's a very powerful song. I won't go into it more, but also love watching the duet music video of that because again, two powerhouses, but also very specific to my cultural identity of a millennial, not void of other generations appreciating it, but felt formative in some ways. The other one that I'll mention are Vivia Mi vida by Mark Anthony. Sorry if my Spanish is poor, but I that song is so joyful to me. And Vivia Mi Vida, if that's a very bad translation and my Spanish isn't great. I need to work on it. But really loosely translated is to live my life. And it's about living your life freely or about living in the moment and being very present. And I do prefer the Spanish version of the song. There are like English versions, but it's I'm going to laugh, I'm going to dance, I'm going to live my life, I'm going to laugh, I'm going to enjoy myself. And that when we think about some of those things, it just it's very uplifting. And I would say beyond just the lyrics, the actual instruments add so much value to this song that it just feels so joyful. That hey, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be here. And I really appreciate that. And then the other song, it's actually two people, two different songs, but same title, stronger, by Kelly Clarkson and by Britney Spears. Choose your whimsy, whichever day you feel like they're both really helpful about being stronger than maybe what hurt you. And that I really appreciate that. Again, there's a millennial lens on this playlist. So I'm gonna fully acknowledge that. I'm not the only one who added to it, but I will acknowledge that some of these additions certainly are from that lens.
SPEAKER_01No, I love I think I don't know. There's like for people who grew up with millennial music, it's nostalgic. And and for people who didn't like we can learn a thing or two.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, I think that there's still new music that can come out, and maybe it just hasn't had the time to develop and be like thought of as as much. I think that so there's some stuff that probably is more Gen X on the list, too, a couple anyways. So let's got a few. The next umbrella that came out in some of our comments and in things on social were really related to act, a acceptance and commitment therapy and embodying some of those principles within certain songs. We know that this is a little bit more a hat that you wear more frequently than me. So what came up for you in terms of what really stood out?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I we got a submission on social media about Sway by Casey Musgraves. And I can't say that's a song I like lean towards a lot. Any of the country I listen to is like Dolly Parton or like 2000s, kind of like I love that song because I think it speaks a lot to psychological flexibility
ACT Skills Hidden In Lyrics
SPEAKER_01and being able to like sway, you know, and move with it. We also got a song submitted that I wasn't super familiar with prior to the episode called Ancient Dreams in a Modern Land. And that was submitted under the umbrella of like cognitive diffusion, being able to separate from our thoughts and self as context and like okay, how do I, my perspective, is is influencing it. And so we I loved both of those submissions, and they both were songs I don't talk about a lot or don't listen to, just kind of in my day-to-day. I love the song Shake It Out by Florence and the Machine. That is one of my like bad day songs. Um I think that also speaks to like diffusion, but also just like the concept of of letting go of unhelpful thoughts or like looking, like separating from the thought and being like, this is not serving me. I have to leave it behind. And so I I I love that song. And I the part that always sticks out to me is like when she says it's hard to dance with the devil on your back, so shake it off. And I think to like our thoughts are so influential on how we feel about ourselves and how we we move through our day in the world, and we get to make the decision of what we choose to engage with, and so I love that song. Are there any that stood out to you?
SPEAKER_02Yes, another millennial, but a different genre, because this is more of the alternative, funky email kind of stuff of The Middle by Jimmy E. World, which I think is a really I think popular, but again, I'm my bias is showing. But it's the lyrics are like it just takes some time. Little girl, you're in the middle, right? And every comes to everything is gonna be just fine, everything is gonna be all right. But it's about if we're linking it to the concepts within act, maybe more of like the distress tolerance and acceptance of things can be messy. It's it says, don't write yourself off yet. And it's yeah, it's messy. You don't have to bow out yet. This is everything's gonna be okay. And maybe similar to some of the other songs I've already mentioned, there's a piece of hope that comes from that, even if there's also the acceptance that yeah, maybe it's not easy right now.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love that song too. Yeah, so good.
SPEAKER_02That, like, oh, I'm excited to listen to this playlist, honestly. I have only curated and created it. I haven't been shuffling it yet, but I'm pumped about it. Another submission that came through was more maybe in terms of IFS and parts work, which I have some limited training in, but I'm very familiar with a lot of the concepts and songs that might speak to different parts or protectors or a self that holds all of these multiple versions of self. And so one of the submissions was called I'm a song by Sergio Wilson Jr. And really talks about when you look at it, it's kind of like the evolution of this person. And so I don't know, I think it felt helpful to say I'm this person and daddy's hand
Parts Work Through Pop Culture
SPEAKER_02that you used to hold when you'd walk back to the car, the sound of the county fair, various little kisses high up in the air, a sip of brandy when your soul is bare and you need to share your heart. So it's like different versions of this person, but then saying I'm a song because I'm all of these things. And so I thought that was an interesting, and it was a song that I hadn't heard before getting the submission, so it's kind of nice to discover. Anything like parts or IFS related that came up for you that like felt helpful or stood out?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that I talk a lot about Encanto in session just all day long. And Surface Pressure, which is the song that for anyone who's seen the movie that Louisa sings, who is like her power within the family as being like the strong one. And it it talks a lot about how she she has to show up for people and like protect them, but also just like get things done. Like she lifts heavy things and and she you know, she she has to take care of a lot for the family. Like there's a lot of pressure for her there. And so I I always think about that when we think about like protector parts, or like sometimes it's hard to be the person who's capable or like more evolved in your family. And so I I think about that a lot. I also think about not to bring her up again, but anti-hero by Taylor Swift. I think that is a a good piece of like looking at our inner critic and how that affects how we view ourselves and how we kind of like we want to push that that part of ourselves away, but there, you know, we can always learn something from each part. I like that.
SPEAKER_02Uh switching gears to maybe go into more songs that were geared towards like just regulating like our nervous systems or being more mindful. Did any of those stand out to you? Or are there any that come up that maybe weren't on the list for you?
SPEAKER_01There wasn't a song in particular, but one of the things I do talk about with clients, or even honestly, sometimes my friends, is like singing itself can be really regulating for your nervous system. Like you have to be mindful of your breath and you're thinking the words, and it's like a really you have to be very present when you sing, right? Like you can't exist in the past or in the future when you sing. And so I didn't have any specific
Regulation, Mindfulness, And Research
SPEAKER_01songs that really stood out to me, but just kind of the the like singing along part of music and like being present with the music was something that stood out to be more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. One of the things that came up for me in thinking about this category was just using music as like how do I want to feel right now? And that I have playlists that I know I have curated to help me feel certain ways. For example, I think I share with you before we started and was talking about singing that I have a playlist called Magical Millennial Duets because I like duets when they get to harmonize and things like that. And I like to get to sing along and pick my part and from required kid here, if that maybe isn't that shocking. But I also have one that's like, put on your positivity pants. I have another one that's like the roller skating playlist. Songs that remind me of going to the roller skating rink when I was young, or songs that give the same kind of vibe where it feels like energetically, like this would be something you would have fun roller skating to. It's fun. And those are just a few. But one of the songs that came up on this list that I wanted to make sure we actually mentioned and highlighted was Weightless by Marconi Union, because it happens to be the only song on the playlist that has clinical research behind it. It was studied for anxiety reduction, and results show that lower people were experiencing lower cortisol levels like measurably. And I think that it's important for us to understand that's not an accident that music does have this power. It's not to say that every song should be researched with how it affects us, but I think we know when something is helping, when something is maybe helping us reduce some of our cortisol or stress. Like, and maybe it's not just a one song, maybe it does take a playlist, but that we can use these things that are fairly accessible through different platforms, as well as I think one thing that I emphasize with clients sometimes is that music can be passive. Because I think sometimes people are like, Oh, yeah, I practice breathing, but I did it like twice and then I never did it again. But that music, not for everyone, but for many people, can be something that's like a little bit easier to just press play. Like the barriers to like practicing to see if it makes a difference, are like less so than maybe a different coping technique or skill that requires like maybe more motivation or things like that, that like we could just hit play and see if it helps. And you can be doing other things or you can be doing nothing, but that like maybe it would be useful. One that came up on this list was called Tracing by John Muir, and it is a B-side. So I don't think this song is as well known, but of course I know it. And I wasn't the one who put this on the list for what it's worth. It did not show up because of me. But I think the only version exists similar to your Cheetah Girls is like a live version. I don't know that it is like it doesn't appear on any album. And so you get like a funny little like verbal intro from John telling about this song. The storytelling in the song may not align with the skill specifically, but there's one lyric that stands out to me, and the song itself is calming, just a strum of guitar. But it he says there's a reason strong moves slow. And I think that's powerful too. I'm a lyric girly, so perhaps that's part of it. But I think that maybe speaks to like also like just the theme of nerve nervous system regulation is hey, if we slow down intentionally, like that might build our strength. What's next, Tori? What's our next umbrella?
SPEAKER_01I think the next umbrella is talking about identity and authenticity, even our values. A lot of these we've we've maybe touched on a little bit, but one that is newer that stands out to me is Unwritten by Natasha Vettingfield. I think that talks about like being able to take ownership of our story. I do a lot of narrative work with clients. I think talking about like we can rewrite what's already happened and the rest is is is unwritten. Like it hasn't happened yet. We could decide. I love that. What stood out to you in that category?
SPEAKER_02Very like in the lead was This Is Me by the Greatest Showman
Identity, Values, And Authentic Living
SPEAKER_02soundtrack, or not by the greatest showman, on the greatest showman track soundtrack. It's a collaborative like cast song with a lead singer. I believe her name's Kiala Saddle, but there's YouTube video of them singing it in rehearsal that's like incredible. But I think like just the track itself, no matter what you're listening to, is really powerful because it talks about maybe the shame that has existed, and then also like the recovery from that, like the the the resilient parts of I'm not afraid to kind of like hide anymore. And I'm not scared to be seen. I make no apologies. This is me. And I think that's such like an empowered, you know, version of oneself. And I'm gonna start getting cheeried again. I did not anticipate this for this episode, so like whatever, but I think that's so powerful. And isn't that what we want for our clients? Is like to feel that like I'm not scared to be seen. I make apologies when they're necessary, but I'm not apologizing for who I am in parts of my identity that people would want to criticize or judge for. I'm showing up and I don't know, I just think that's beautiful. You're getting me weepy on a Tuesday morning that we're recording this. Who knew? Or afternoon. Yeah, so that's my favorite. There's another closer to free by Bodine's Party of Five theme song, which was a show in the 90s on Fox about a family of five children. So I'm gonna leave it there, but it's a good one. It's a bop. So I hope you enjoy that one on the playlist is everybody wants to live like they want to live. Everybody wants to love like they want to love. Everybody wants to be closer to free and beautiful. Love it. Love. Yeah. The next category we have was boundary setting and interpersonal dynamics. Any songs there for you that you felt like let's unpack it?
SPEAKER_01Definitely the one that stood out to me from the playlist is Since You've Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson. I think a lot about that song when we're talking about moving on from unhealthy dynamics and like feeling relieved when they're over. I I don't know, there's so many songs that kind of fit in that category for me. And I don't just think they're applicable with like romantic relationships, right? Like we can have like friends or family members that we're moving on from. And that song, I don't know, that one
Boundaries And Relationship Dynamics
SPEAKER_01always kind of comes up for me on those in those times in my life. What about you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. One of the comments or submissions that we received was Monica's Don't Take It Personal. And it is fantastic. Another BOP, but it peaked at number two on the Billboard Hot 100 and top Billboard's RB chart for two weeks in June of 1995, just for context. And it's, I just want to be all alone. It's just one of those days when I want to be all alone and you think I treat you wrong. Don't take it personal. And it's saying, I love you, but sometimes it's just one of these days that a girl goes through when I'm angry inside and I don't want to take it out on you. And I think it's, yeah, I'm setting a boundary. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to say, hey, I need this day for myself. But again, such a bop. Took me back. There's some research that says the music that was popular when you were in adolescence is very positive in terms of nostalgia and not triggering in a good way, but inciting goodness. And I I was in fifth grade, or depending on yeah, that was summer. So I was in fifth grade. I started sixth grade that fall. So definitely right around the time where yeah, it was a good one. A very good one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You saying that made me remember there's this one direction song, little known. I would, if I may be so bold, I consider myself a bit of a one direction historian. But from their first album, there's a song called I Want, and it's about like saying no to a girl who keeps asking them to like get things for them, like material objects. And it's like they're saying, like, no, like that's not what I want this relationship to be about. And I think that is also like a good, I don't know, boundary setting deep pull.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Our next category is more existential and philosophical themes. Gosh, there's so many. That list could be endless. I'm just gonna leave with my favorite one because it's something that I feel like is so relevant, but probably has been pretty relevant since it's come out is Where is the Love by the Black IPs? What's wrong with the world, mama? And I'll leave it there. But I think it applies to some collective suffering that has been experienced in the world and definitely has a social justice lens, which I think hits really hard for counselors.
SPEAKER_01But what popped out for you? I mean, I think this category we've already talked about a lot of my favorites that are on the playlist, Vienna and Never Grow Up.
Existential Themes And Collective Pain
SPEAKER_01We did get a submission, which was a song I again was like not super familiar with called Typical Situation by the Dave Matthews band. And when you listen to it, it kind of has a lot of themes of like interconnectedness. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I also think instrumental with Dave Matthews is something that is really helpful in, I don't know, framing like the vibe of the song. And so the vibe is really, I don't know. I appreciated it. It helped me maybe think of non-duality, like things are nuanced. So yeah. Our next and final umbrella, our kind of theme in terms of what came up in some of these playlist songs was hope, motivation, and behavioral activation. Some that maybe really connect to a lot of motivational interviewing concepts or ideas, evoking change talk and forward movement. And some of these songs overlapped in their themes. They show up more on more than one theme. So they're only gonna be on the playlist once, but they show up here multiple times. So any of these that stood out to you more succinctly?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there was one that I that I don't ever like seek out on purpose, but when I hear
Hope, Motivation, And Behavior Change
SPEAKER_01it on the radio or something, it I don't know. I miss the band fun so much. Like I know Jack Antonov is doing good things, but I miss Fun in a way I can't properly communicate to you. But Carry On made its way onto the playlist, and I love that song. Like speaking of like songs from your adolescence that like stick with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was older, but that album, that first album, was like I was listening to it from front to back kind of thing, definitely. Move along by the All-American Rechex also made it to this part of the list. And I think that was you're like, gosh, you guys can analyze me in this episode because of the things that stood out to me. But with that lyrics is when all you gotta keep is strong, move along. And it sounds like it's not dismissing, right? It's just saying, Don't give up, this keep moving, so that like maybe you don't give into the negative. And so I I don't know, I always liked that one. And then from Rent, like people commonly probably call it no day but today, although on the like the like albums, it's the finale B, where it's emphasizing the lyrics of there's no day but today, and just really about being present moment-oriented, which I think is helpful. Yeah. So, you know, we we gave this long list. There are plenty more that you will see linked, but like just as a like a summary to wrap it up is that why does this work for people? Why are clients arriving in sessions already primed? And how can we use it as a tool like to help bridge into these clinical concepts or build skills for a client who maybe isn't comfortable? So, what are some things that stand out to you, Tori, of like why does this actually work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think one of the things I always think about, and we and we touched on it a little bit right at the beginning of the episode, is like it's very low stakes entry point for people. It
Why Music Helps Clients Open Up
SPEAKER_01it does it doesn't take a lot of like forethought or commitment, it doesn't take a lot of energy investment. I talk about that a lot with clients when we're thinking about coping skills. Like, I love that going for a jog for two hours makes you feel better, but we don't always have time for that. And music is so accessible. I also think that like if we think about creating psychological distance between things we're experiencing and and things that are maybe hard for us to talk about, seeing it through someone else's perspective, like in a song, creates a bit of safety for people to explore those feelings. And so I think that's something that's really beneficial, beneficial about music is like it's you it's it's applicable to ourselves, but it's also separate. Can you repeat that because you cut out in that last sentence? Yeah, I just have to remember what I said. I think music is so beneficial because it's obviously it's applicable to ourselves, but it's coming through the lens of someone else's experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think to your point, it's brief. It's also not a lecture. It's less directive, which I think is sometimes helpful for people who maybe are hesitant to engage, right? It's not just about it being like more passive, but that, hey, you're gonna listen to music anyways. You're probably listening to it and maybe not always paying attention to it. But I'm not here to tell you you should be sleeping better or drinking more water or like moving your body. Those are some foundational skills, but maybe that feels too directive for some people, and that's not exactly how we would say it, but that this feels accessible and easier to approach. I like the idea of asking a client what song feels like where you're at right now. Or if you aren't sure about the language, especially when you think about feeling whales or something, if you're not sure, is there a song that might speak to it? Is there a song that evokes what you're feeling? Because even if that song doesn't have necessarily the emotional language, like where it says a feeling word specifically, maybe that storytelling does still give something for us to be able to then explore and unpack together. Unpack pun intended.
SPEAKER_01Oh I love that. I I have to say, when we put out our call for submissions, I obviously I I believe in our listenership, but I just felt really seen by a lot of the comments. Like I really appreciated what everyone had to say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm so excited that people showed up and I love everything that we talked about. And what I especially love is this is a reminder that healing doesn't always have to look as clinical as maybe sometimes we're thinking, or that it has to come straight out of a textbook, that we can use some of these elements like music to tap into and find a way in for people, and that people can use the music then until something finally clicks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. I think it's a really human way of processing. Definitely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. If you had a song that, as we were talking today that didn't make it into the episode, I'm sure there are many. Please text us in the show notes or find us on social media and tell us what's on your playlist nobody prescribed. Cause like I said, we can have this playlist be like a living, breathing thing and you can continue adding to it even following this episode. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And if the episode today made you think of someone, please send this to them, tag or tag them in a post, share it. The more people that we hear from and the more perspectives, the better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And if you haven't already, make sure you're following Ohio Accouns and Conversations wherever you listen to the podcasts so that you never miss an
Share Your Songs And Keep Listening
SPEAKER_02episode. We're gonna be back soon with more things worth unpacking.
SPEAKER_01And until then, let's keep our playlists going. I'm so excited to keep adding to it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us for Let's Unpack That, brought to you by Ohio Counseling Conversations and the Ohio Counseling Association. If it sparks something for you, share it with a colleague or drop us a line. We'd love to keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening, and until next time, we encourage you to keep unpacking the big stuff one conversation at a time.
SPEAKER_00Let's Unpack That is a podcast intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views, opinions, and references shared by hosts or guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Ohio Counseling Association. Any appearance by a guest does not imply an endorsement of them, their views, or any organizations they may represent. Content discussed should not be interpreted as official positions, recommendations, or endorsements by OCA or its leadership.