Ohio Counseling Conversations
Ohio Counseling Conversations
Conversation 43 - Values In Action: Meet OCA's Next President
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If you’ve ever felt like counseling is happening in three places at once the therapy room, the classroom, and the policy arena you’re not imagining it. We talk with Dr. Chase Morgan-Swaney, an assistant professor at Baldwin Wallace University, an LPCC-S, and the newest president of the Ohio Counseling Association, about what it takes to practice and lead with clarity when the profession feels stretched thin.
We start with professional counselor identity across clinical mental health counseling, school counseling, and couples and family work, and why those boundaries are not as clean as training programs sometimes imply. From there, we get practical about clinical supervision: what “meeting supervisees where they are” really looks like when values clash, stress is high, and the ethical duty to avoid imposing values is real. We also explore how trauma-informed counseling has expanded to include culture and oppression, alongside post-traumatic growth and resilience.
On the clinical side, Chase breaks down Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) for CBT-trained counselors, including the role of mindfulness, acceptance, and values-based action. We dig into affirmative therapy with LGBTQ and neurodiverse clients, how to hold space for discrimination without pathologizing a reasonable response, and how cultural broaching can build trust. Finally, we zoom out to OCA leadership, managed care pressures, continuing education, member value, and one system change that could reduce burnout: paying counselors for the administrative work that makes care possible.
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Marisa Cargill
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill, Lauren Collins-Knight, Victoria Frazier, and Shannon O'Mara
·Editing by Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Welcome And Guest Context
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations, the podcast where we sit down with the people shaping counseling here in Ohio and talk about the work, the profession, and everything in between. I'm your host, Dr. Marissa Cargill. So often we get to have a conversation that spans the whole arc of what it means to be a counselor in this state, the room, the classroom, the page, and the leadership table. Today is one of those. Our guest is Dr. Jace. Our guest is Dr. Chase Morgan Swainy. He's an assistant professor of counseling at Baldwin Wallace University and licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisory designation. A counselor who has practiced since 2017 across just about every setting you can name private practice, community mental health, a university clinic, and an outpatient pediatric hospital. His clinical work centers on LGBTQ and neurodiverse clients, grounded in an acceptance and commitment therapy framework through an affirmative feminist lens. He's a practitioner scholar, a past president of OASIS, NCOCA, and SAGEO. And the reason for today's timing, he's our newest president of the Ohio Counseling Association. We're going to cover a lot of ground, how he thinks about supervising and training the next generation of counselors, what affirmative, values-based clinical work actually looks like in practice, and where he hopes to take OCA and the profession as he steps into this role. Chase, welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations. We are so excited to have you here today. And I've known you for a long time, but in the case that listeners maybe haven't, we know that hearing your bio, you've worn a lot of hats since 2017. Private practice, community mental health, university clinic, in-outpatient pediatric hospital.
unknownWhew.
SPEAKER_02When you introduce yourself to a room of counselors who don't know you yet, like how do you describe who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you for the question. And I'm happy to be here. It's always a pleasure to be with you, as you know, you're a dear friend of mine and colleague, and you have been for a long time. And I guess to be responsive to the question, how I introduce myself to a room of counselors is essentially as you describe it, I kind of take it from hat to hat. Predominantly, right now, I wear the counselor educator hat at Baldwin Wallace University in their department of counseling. And I also work clinically in a private practice, as you mentioned. Met Arbersana, and I've served as associate director now there for a few
Wearing Many Hats In Ohio Counseling
SPEAKER_00years. And then also as a servant leader and an advocate through my work with OCA predominantly. And yeah, that's how I would I would take it is hat by hat as you initially described it, because I think that's like the easiest way to do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I'm happy that you led with the primary role of counselor education because I think we wanted to start some of our questions there and talk to you. Like that given some of your experiences you taught across clinical mental health, school counseling, MFT, CFT programs, what do you think that each of those tracks has to learn from one another that maybe they don't always get a chance to in in counselor ed programs?
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that. One of the things that's of particular importance to me that I'm looking to carry into my term in a meaningful way is a focus on professional counselor identity. And so when we talk about clinical mental health counselors, I think when we think about professional counselor identity, that is the predominant specialty area, if
Building A Shared Counselor Identity
SPEAKER_00you will, that comes to mind. However, right, we also can't leave out marriage and family counselors, school counselors who also are professional counselors and have that professional counselor identity. I think that when we think about the American School Counseling Association and we think about the marriage and family therapist profession, sometimes, and I know that those are two separate sort of areas that we could focus on, but we also have to remember that there are school-based counselors, right? Who are clinical counselors who work in schools. And there are also counselors who are, for the sake of being a licensed in the state of Ohio, licensed professional counselors that maybe work exclusively, right, with couples and families who would have that identity as like a marriage and family counselor, but wouldn't be a part of the profession of marriage and family therapy. And so I think that's one thing that's of particular importance when we're educating uh burgeoning clinical counselors, school counselors, and marriage and family counselors is that they're not these distinct professions per se, because these folks can all exist and do all exist under a professional counselor identity. But there are separate, right? Folks who operate in different capacities, like marriage and family therapists being their own profession. But we have counselors who do that work too. And sometimes, like I mentioned, exclusively do that work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That the boundaries aren't so precise in terms of like what opportunities you have. And we need to understand like where they intersect and where they are separate. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of blending and intersections, you describe blending contextual, behavioral, feminist, reflective developmental approaches as a supervisor in the work that you do. For clinical supervisors who might be listening to the show, these LPCCS folks, and maybe some who are training to become supervisors, what does meeting students or supervisees where they are actually look like in challenging supervision moments?
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that. And I think when we look at the approach that I take as a supervisor, and I work exclusively right now in a supervisory capacity wearing my counselor educator hat. So I don't have many supervisees in my private practice, but I do work in a supervisory capacity and practicum an internship as a faculty instructor. And one of the things that comes to mind when you ask that question is the sociopolitical landscape and meeting right supervisees where they are as they're meeting their clients where they are. And sometimes it's holding space for divergent opinions
Supervision When Values Collide
SPEAKER_00or divergent sets of values, beliefs. And how do we honor what is our value system and what matters to us and that of the client and be able to work with them in a way that still helps them to meet their therapeutic goals? So it's like, how can I make space for the maybe discordance that the supervisee is feeling while still honoring like our ethical obligation to not impose values, but rather like how can I still ensure that my humanity is infused into the process where it doesn't get lost?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right? Because it's like this client is saying things that aren't landing well for me.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00That's what I'm hearing a lot of times from the supervisee. And how can I still meet them like with all the things that matter to me, like empathy and cultural humility, uh while trying to, you know, keep in context like what is it that they're here to accomplish and how can I help them?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What are their goals for being here and how can I support that in a way that makes sense?
SPEAKER_00It doesn't feel like a betrayal to myself.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's hard, isn't it, Marissa?
SPEAKER_02I would like, yes. I I'm like thinking, like going in lots of tangential ways in my brain of, oh yeah, there's this example or this example, and how have I tried to do that? But that, yeah, there's a lot of times experiences where we want to honor the client, but it feels challenging because something they said doesn't sit well, or like you feel very oppositional to. And it's like, well, what's their goal? I feel like that's always something that I try to come back to to ground me in like, how what are they here for? Because their goal for being here may not be what I like, I think they should be working on.
SPEAKER_00And that we have to And that's not up to us to decide.
SPEAKER_02Correct, right? Like, so it's it's about making sure that you have that insight to know where it's like your stuff coming in, but then also like how do I get back to reset, refocus? And those goals I think are always really helpful.
SPEAKER_01For sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You got me like thinking all these things on a Monday morning, Chase. Like I should have known. So, you know, speaking of some challenge other challenges is something that we so commonly encounter, right? 12 years into this profession, like officially licensed here. And I'm like, wow, trauma is so prevalent. We don't necessarily get that. I think we're getting it more now in counselor programs than maybe I did, you know, more than a decade ago. But you teach trauma-informed counseling and group counseling. And would you share with us some concepts or a concepts in those areas that you think there has been evolution in the field, especially since you've started practicing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I think that trauma in and of itself, that term has expanded quite considerably
Trauma Expands Toward Culture And Growth
SPEAKER_00in terms of everything that is considered trauma, right? So if this makes sense, it's like early on when we think about trauma. I think we we think about, we thought about thinked. We thought about it through it's Monday.
SPEAKER_02For those listening, we're recording on a Monday morning. So cut us a little slack. We're human first, counselor second.
SPEAKER_00That's right. That's very funny, though. Think thought about trauma was somewhat limited in terms of like which we thought we thought about through like how do you acquire PTSD? Well, I again in a quite myopic view. I think many of us were taught about like folks who acquire sort of post-traumatic syndromes through their military service or through being assaulted, right? Maybe either physically or sexually. And that has expanded.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think thankfully so. Oh, right. Because I hope you understand what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, go ahead, please.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I was just gonna say, I know there are different ideas about language used around it, but I think it was always considered like what we might now say is big T. Like that's that was like the only origin story for PTST.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And now it's grown to include more cultural aspects of trauma. Like what's coming to mind is like racial battle fatigue, for example, with regard to race-based trauma or trauma around experiences in society related to one's racial identity and the prejudice and discrimination and forms of oppression that one can experience, as well as thinking about trauma just from an intersectional perspective, from how folks with minoritized and marginalized identities and backgrounds can experience trauma, again, rooted in experiences with oppressive systems. And so that has been something that we've infused into the trauma-informed counseling course, but also the aspect of post-traumatic growth and resilience in the trauma conceptualization and what that looks like. So there's been a lot of, I think, work, particularly in the last decade or so, when we were in our like earlier training experiences that have helped us to really capture the experience of trauma and also ways to heal from trauma that are far more culturally responsive and sustaining and more from the lens of like post-traumatic growth and resilience. So it's more strength-based, which helps us as counselors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Switching gears into more of like your clinical work, like on that note, we know that you practice predominantly through the act framework, but also with affirmative feminist lens on top of that or in tandem. For counselors who are like act curious but trained primarily in like a CBT realm. How would you describe what shifts when you move towards acceptance and values-based work?
SPEAKER_00So it's difficult to talk about them separately, right? Because ACT is a third-wave cognitive therapy. So it's like CBT is not,
ACT Versus CBT With Mindfulness
SPEAKER_00it's not like, you know, completely, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because that's where it largely got its start, was through that CBT framework. The way I think to discuss this for folks who might be like unfamiliar with ACT would be to say ACT at core doesn't ask us to change or challenge thoughts, but rather how do we experience them in such a way where they're no longer getting in our way? Meaning, like, how can we make room for them, be willing to allow for them as they show up, and not have that deter us from living out our values and making choices and taking actions that are still in alignment with how we want to be and how we want to be living in the direction of what matters to us. Whereas CBT does very much talk about how do we restructure and reframe thoughts and change them so that we can engage in adaptive, you know, behaviors and goal-directed behaviors. Um, ACT just takes a different tact where it's just like maybe these things don't have to change at all. Maybe it's just how we go about experiencing them that has to that that we could take a look at and still live out our values in ways that are meaningful to us.
SPEAKER_02I want to go on a quick tangent with that just to have a follow-up. But for those who maybe are like, but CBT works. CBT is the gold standard. It's evidence-based, right? And so, you know, we know that there's research that exists with that. Like, where do you think it is maybe, or what kinds of scenarios do you think are most useful to say we're not throwing the baby out with the bath water when it comes to CBT, but here's another approach that might reach my client differently better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I would say, well, thankfully, all of that can be true at the same time because it's very true that CBT does work, right? We have umpteen, you know, randomized controlled trials, right, that speak to that in terms of the results that say, yes, CBT is efficacious with many different presenting concerns. And thankfully, the research base likewise is that for ACT. And we know that ACT is efficacious for many different presenting concerns. And so I don't see these two things as like warring factions, if you will, but rather two different approaches, and one came first chronologically, one could not exist without the other, which is act could not exist without CBT. And so it's it's like they they have this sort of like symbiotic mutuality relationship. It's just the act sort of takes it a step further where you add that mindfulness component because like the acceptance piece is rooted in that mindfulness tradition of again, willingness to allow for experiences to be as they are, because like acceptance and acceptance commitment therapy is not about like condoning or liking challenging internal experiences, but rather it's about a willingness to allow for them as they show up.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Because as we know, and CBT would say as much too, the more we try to fight with them, the more we ruminate in them and worry about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was thinking like perfectionist mindsets, where like maybe there's some times where like this acceptance piece is so meaningful in that equation where not that CBT can't work for people maybe who have a perfectionist mindset, but that maybe this extends like it furthers some insight and also distress tolerance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like with that presenting challenge. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And you you invoke, no, there's nothing, yeah, no need to apologize because you also invoked distress tolerance, right? Which we know is one of the modules of dialectical behavior therapy, which again exists in the same family because it's another one of the third-wave cognitive therapies, along with mindfulness-based cognitive therapy, right? They all live together. And like there's more that brings them together than sets them apart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Because at it at their core, a lot of it is like stress management and distress tolerance. But how we get there might be a little different. It's like when the GPS says, Do you want the scenic route? No tolls, fastest with tolls. There's just different paths to the same destination.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I love that. Yeah. I'm gonna borrow that if you don't mind.
SPEAKER_02Oh. Please borrow it's not trademarked, so we're good.
SPEAKER_00I don't owe you a royalties, you're saying, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Should be trademarking. No. Just kidding. Just kidding. You share with us things about characteristics and dynamics in your clinical focus. The populations that you primarily serve are LGBTQ and neurodiverse adolescents and adults. When you think about affirmative care, tell us a little bit about what that means to you in practice beyond that language, but just in the actual room with the client, what does that look like? And mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So affirmative care in practice looks at, in my in my opinion, fully honoring and valuing the person for who they are and all that they bring. In terms of their identity, of course, as we talk about working with queer and
Affirmative Care In The Therapy Room
SPEAKER_00trans folks, and we talk about working with folks on the broad bright spectrum of like neurodiverse experiences, be that like ADHD or autism, et cetera, et cetera, right? So it's honoring their lived experience and taking what they're saying as the expert of their of their experience and of their life and infusing their expertise based on their lived experience into the work in a meaningful way to where it's not being like it's not being discounted because they know what is going to work or what's not going to work for them. And if they don't, then you want them to help to come to come to their understanding of that by helping them understand maybe what has worked in a different context. And that's where ACT comes in because Act is a contextual behavioral approach. So it's like, well, let's take a look and see where you have excelled in other areas of your life in the way that you're struggling now, but maybe in a different context, you weren't struggling with a particular thing that you're struggling with now in this context. I know that seems kind of nebulous because we're talking about it like in abstraction, but I hope that this makes sense. It's like you're struggling with this now in this context, but like maybe in this other context of this other time, you were able to meet this challenge. And could we maybe like retool some of the things that you use and were successful in using and bring them now right forward to now in in this context, if this makes sense. Yeah. Um, and so that's how I see affirmative work is like what have you done and who are you, and what are you bringing to the table? And how do I honor that as it is? And of course, all everything that we understand affirmative care to be, right? Like using their pronouns, ensuring that we're not like misgendering or mislabeling or misidentifying in any way. And like we're using terms that are congruent, right, for them. Not just related to identity, but also like just trying to infuse their language. That's part of like honoring their lived expertise through their lived experience. So I hope that this makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it does. And I think it brings up some Other questions you mentioned earlier, maybe sociopolitical interactions within supervision. When it comes to clinical work, maybe we're working with clients who are bringing in distress that stems specifically directly from discrimination, prejudice, or oppression that they have encountered as part of their lived experience. How do you, as a clinician, hold space for that as a clinical concern without pathologizing a completely reasonable response to really unjust environmental factors?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's trying to make that as
Naming Oppression Without Pathologizing
SPEAKER_00clear as possible to the client and see and not assume that that is something that resonates for them. But that rather that like if if it does, we can go that direction. But it's also like not assuming that they're attributing do you know what I mean? That they're attributing it to unjust social conditions. But I never am first to ascribe concerns to someone's individual or intrinsic capability or capacity or lack thereof, right? And that's part of also just being a professional counselor and not looking at things from a deficit perspective. So I'm always thinking like what are the the what are this person's experiences based on what I'm hearing from them? And how could what it is that they're presenting in counseling as the concerns they want to address be originated in their external environment, either it interpersonally, familially, on a broader social context in terms of how they interface with institutions. So I'm always trying to keep that in mind. And then I might bring that to their attention in different ways and see just how that appears to land for them, either directly or indirectly. And sometimes clients name that for themselves, right? Like we talk about the, and I know this because you and I, like I said, are friends and colleagues, so I know that this resonates with you. So I'm sorry if I open a can of worms, but like some clients themselves will be like talking about the the pall of capitalism and like productivity requirements and how that that the way that our occupational system and like expectations related to work are is set up in our society, is particularly not suited to neurodiverse people. So sometimes they'll name that for themselves. And so then I'm like, okay, well, they understand that the origin of their presenting concerns is external and not internal, but they still might be struggling with like this internal dialogue that there's something wrong with them because they're not able to meet these oppressive demands from the external system.
SPEAKER_02Well, right. And because that systemic pressure has been there, not just maybe in that specific environment, but throughout their lives in multiple environments. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, educational system, for example.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, I you got my brain, the wheels are turning. But yeah, I think it's like sometimes clients can name it, and when they can't, that we can approach it tentatively in a way of here's what you've shared. And I'm wondering, is this something that you're considering? I feel like there are times where it could be racism, sexism, intersections of those things that like I know as a white woman in the counseling room, like if our identities are different in some way, shape, or form, I will acknowledge that. I acknowledge that at the start of any relationship with a client, but I also will acknowledge that when I'm saying, hey, I could be off, but from where I'm sitting, like I'm wondering if you feel like there might be some ism happening here.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. Yes. Because it's our, like you said, it's our duty to broach that, or what you were speaking to was like our duty to engage in cultural broaching as the person in the position of power, right? Like in that evaluative relationship as a counselor. And so it's like we want we need to broach that identity difference. Yeah. Also, because if if we happen to identif fall on the spectrum of like having privileged identities in regard to societal power and privilege, and maybe we're working with a client who is of a marginalized or minoritized background, that's also more incumbent on us to make sure to broach that, not just as you mentioned at the start of a relationship, but also when you're approaching things that are about dynamics related to perhaps identity or background.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because we while we want it to be like uh an egalitarian, collaborative relationship, we are the ones with the competence. And I think one once we acknowledge that in that space, it may also give some a permission because they may be like fearful of saying it to be like, I don't know if she's gonna get defensive. If I say it, I think I might be experiencing racism. And so if I say, Do you think you're experiencing some racism in that environment? They're like, oh, she understands to the degree that I can, not having the same lived experience. But like, okay, she's able to name that too.
SPEAKER_00We understand then the reticence that they still might be experiencing clients of marginalized or minoritized backgrounds, even when we name it, they still, understandably so, might have apprehension on like really stepping into that and taking ownership of that, even though they hear it and feel more safe because we've named it first. Right. It's just like, no, I understand that because I'm a white person and they're a person of color, or I'm a man, like I'm a cisgender man, and this is a cisgender woman or a trans or non-binary person, and I'm talking about their experiences of like trans music or transphobic experiences, right? Yeah, experiences I don't have. Yeah, and experiences that people like me have perpetrated against them. And so there's like a some degree of safety that's building, but like I understand why there's still like maybe some hesitancy or even some inclination in terms of like what I've experienced before in my own clinical work of people being like, Yeah, I think you're you might be right, like to some effect about like me experiencing racism in the workplace, and then also wanting to say something that I know perhaps runs counter to what they actually believe, which is just like, but you know, at the end of the day, we're all just like a bag of bones and like there's no like sort of like the colorblind thing, which I understood. I I understood as like a way to bring comfort to me. And so I was like, okay, I understand what they're attempting to do, and I can honor that in terms of like what they're trying to do to preserve the relationship. And that's not something that I need, but I understand why they would think that I do being like a white cis person. Yeah. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Gosh, yeah. This is such a good conversation. I feel like we could do a whole episode just talking about that, but I want to switch gears a little and I'll always come back. Yeah. We have you on air. We have you recorded saying it. So now I can hold you to it. I want to talk about leadership. And the reason for the timing of this episode is very intentional. Historically, within OCA, you've led Oasis, NC, OCA, Segio, and you're now stepping into the OCA presidency. And so by the time this episode is published, you'll have been president for about a week. But tell us what has serving in all these different leadership seats taught you about what counselors across Ohio really need from their professional association?
SPEAKER_00No, it's a great question. And I think it's one that we're
Leading OCA Through Managed Care Pressures
SPEAKER_00I and we, because that's that sure speaks to my approach to the team. Yeah, and I know you can speak to that too. Which is, I think we're always trying to contend with with that question. Like what is it that folks are looking for? And how how do I get in front of the people? Like how meaning like the folks, our constituency in terms of like Ohio counselors, how how can I reach them and how can I get in front of them? And how can I make sure that OCA feels worth their while and feels worth their the money that it that I know that it it takes to be actively engaged as an OCA member. And so we're always thinking about that. And we're actively having discussions about that later today, you know, in terms of like how do we respond to some of the different reprehensible steps that managed care organizations have taken recently? And how do we enhance our capacity just to assist counselors who might be independently licensed and of course don't require supervision anymore and getting our consultation task force off the ground to that, to that extent. And what are some other things? My goodness. All the ways that we can help offer more free continuing education opportunities. One of the things that we'll be doing is like a free one-hour lunch and learn at least once a month throughout my term and hopefully in perpetuity again, just to make membership worth members' while in terms of like membership fees. And so we're always in ongoing discussions and always thinking about how can we hear from people in terms of what they need, and then how can we get them what they need so that they want to they want to become members and they want to stay members because that's what we want to do is ultimately be member serving and like really truly embody servant leadership in that way.
SPEAKER_02As you step into the role, I think you touched on some of this already, but what are you hoping to build, protect, or move forward for Ohio Count Ohio's counseling community?
SPEAKER_00Definitely like a just a more robust set of uh benefits being a part of OCA, not just tangible takeaways, but also intangible, an in an intangible sense of unity and a strong professional identity that is safeguarded and advanced by our association. What I mean by that is again, going back to like this managed care strategy in terms of how do we be responsive to some of this from some of the actions that managed care organizations are taking. We're sort of in the fraud, waste, and abuse era of Medicaid and wanting to reform Medicaid in ways that are not going to be experienced by counselors and the folks we serve as reforms. When I think of reform, I think of making things better. This is more like reductionistic.
SPEAKER_01Regression.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Exactly. Yes, it's a regression in and in in the name of reform, right? Um and so we want to get out ahead of that. We want to work with allied organizations like NASA and ASW of Ohio. We want to partner with other mental health organizations or mental health adjacent organizations and strengthen those partnerships to that extent to focus on those managed care strategies, et cetera. And then also, as I was saying, the tangible benefits, right? So there's this intangible sense of like safety and unity and knowing and trusting that OCA is advocating. And that helps strengthen our professional identity. But then there's also the tangible benefits, like more continuing ed credits, those types of things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think if I can add, not it's not my presidency, but I think part of conversations that we've had is also just improving our storytelling and how we a lot of these things sometimes are happening, but that because this profession is a busy group of people where we're wear like wearing a lot of hats, just as we led with, that sometimes it's hard to know what has been happening. And so we are working, you know, collaboratively to make sure we're improving that piece so people know.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00This is one of our crown jewels, what we're doing right now, Ohio counseling conversations, right? Is we want to strengthen that and support you, support us in that effort even further. And also, of course, all the work that a media, public relations and membership or MPR, MPRM committee is doing through our social media platforms. And I think about, like you said, that storytelling, because we reach such a wide audience, yeah, what that is far beyond just the confines of like our membership, right?
SPEAKER_02And the state.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so how can we do that? How can because that speaks to I I think a lot of the intangible benefits of like feeling a unified sense of professional identity and strength and a shared direction and a goal. Like when we're when we're able to tell stories of not only the work that we're doing, that's part of it, of course, but also counselors who are members or are not are seeing their stories represented, right? And see their struggles represented, and then want to continue to be a part of this or want to join it in order to help move us forward collectively. And so yeah, there's certainly nothing I'm going to do that's going to stand in the way of that. I mean, that's my goal is to only advance those efforts and enhance them in any way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. You've said it a couple of times, but also it's something that I've known about you for a long time that servant leadership is really important to you. And to that end, what do you think servant leadership looks like when you're leading this statewide organization of these people who are wearing a lot of hats who might be feeling stretched and busy and discouraged by what's happening?
SPEAKER_00I think one of the things that I'm actively learning, which is a process of like being and becoming a leader all the time, is that one it's one thing to sort of step forward and
Servant Leadership And Membership Value
SPEAKER_00empower committees, chapters, divisions to say, this is your area of expertise division, this is your charge committee. And so I am sort of like letting like letting go of the reins. I don't want this to be a bureaucracy. Like I don't want you to feel like everything you do has to go through the executive board and be rubber stamped before you go forth and do what you're charged to do in your bylaw, in our bylaws and our operating procedures. Like I want you to feel empowered to do that. And at the same time, I understand what that can unintentionally communicate, which is just like, okay, we're we have free reign to do what it is that we feel inclined to do. But like we're wearing a lot of hats and like we're doing this for free. And we're like, we want to do it because we're passionate about it and we care about our counselors and we care about the state of the profession. But like we also need support to do these things. And so one of the things I want to follow up with that and make sure to be intentional about over the next year is like and then also what do you need to do it? And like knowing full well that I'm in the same boat as you and we're all in the same boat, right? Then like how can we work together to find how like what that might look like? And like we never, you know, have to exercise our creativity in in many ways in order to do that. But it's not just like go forth and do what you're empowered to do and what you're charged with doing. And and I trust you, like we trust you to do that. But it's just like, and also like what do you need to do that? Because like, yeah, I think that for the yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, membership, retention, engagement, they're like perennial questions for any association organization. From your perspective, why should a professional counselor in Ohio who's already feeling pretty overextended see OCA as worth their time and dues?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. And I think my immediate response is to tout all the work that's being done already. I spoke a lot about everything that's going on with regard to MPRM, our NPRM's efforts, but I want to highlight also Mike Desposito and the insurance advocacy committee and all the work that's happening there in terms of, again, formulating a cogent and impactful managed care strategy. Also, some is crafting some guides with regard to how to file a grievance for insurance purposes, and also just everything that they're doing with regard to collaborating with the Government Relations Committee and Keith Vukasinovich and CJ Potter and their their work in our OCA lobbyists, Amanda Sines and Rachel Aresman, and everything that they're doing to be responsive to the legislation in the State House. Like one of our achievements recently is Senate Bill 162, the clawback bill that was recently passed. That was something that we are actively engaged in and supported, and that was a focus of our legislative advocacy day in March. So there are lots of things going on. There's also Laura Lewis and the Leadership Development Committee and our leadership certificate program, which is an NBA across the country with regard to how to prepare leaders to serve in in the counseling profession and particularly in our state. And other folks want to use the leadership certificate program as a model to develop similar programs in their states and how to prepare leaders to serve specifically in their states and meet their states' needs. So there's there's a lot going on here at OCA, and we'd love to have you on board, if not to help strengthen it, then just to to benefit from it and to be a part of it and to those benefits.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Moving or zooming out a little bit, when you talk about all these efforts and initiatives, it's because there are a lot of challenges with how counselors are supported, especially in Ohio, although not exclusive to us. If you could change one thing about how a mental health system supports counselors and their clients in Ohio, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00It's interesting. The first thing that comes to mind is I don't know why. Well, I do know why, but I guess the first thing that comes to mind is like what what how amazing it would be to be paid for the administrative work all the same as the clinical
Pay For Paperwork And Prevent Burnout
SPEAKER_00work. Like I feel like that's not an unreasonable ask. But, you know, to to be able to be paid for everything that has to happen in the background, that's not the direct clinical provision, like the provision of clinical services, because it's just as integral to the success of client care to ensure that we're documenting well and appropriately and ensuring that we're updating treatment plans and all these things, things that can easily get moved to the back burner or fall to the wayside because that's not something that we're being actively paid for. For example, like if you're a private practitioner, you're definitely not getting paid for that. And I guess that's the lens through which I'm seeing this because I am a private practitioner. So it's just like you're not getting paid for that. There's because you're only getting paid for the the service you provide.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think that speaks to other like settings as well, because within agency, like those productivity requirements are really heavy. And that this that would allow for space for accommodating, hey, your client facing eight hours of the day, when do you know it's get done? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And what that would do wonders for burnouts, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I imagine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I like it. And I know depending on the day, our answers might change to that question. So you don't have to be married to one alone, but I think that's a great one for today. As we get closer to wrapping up this conversation, mind telling us what gives you hope about the next generation of counselors coming through programs like the one you teach in, or just about the profession in general, what's giving you hope about the future?
SPEAKER_00What's giving me hope about the future would be the fact that folks are still feeling called to come into this profession and to step into it, even when they might not have much cause or reason for hope for themselves. They feel moved. And there's something just
What Gives Hope For The Future
SPEAKER_00that's working in their humanness that is is bringing them to us. And that that alone gives me hope. Is that there are still folks who are showing up for interviews in programs. There are still folks who are actively pursuing licensure and clinical positions once they graduate from our programs. And there are folks then in broader systems, like our legislators and courts, who are trying to undo actions that are trying to constrict access to programs, right? So that's giving me hope too, because it it shows that they see the value in counseling. They see the value of what we bring and what we're able to provide to the public and to our communities, to the clients we serve. And they're taking steps actively to protect that and to not even not just protect it, but to build it and to make it even better. And that's what we hope to continue to do in OCA.
SPEAKER_02We just did an episode of Let's Unpack That where we had a playlist nobody prescribed in songs that are meaningful and There Can Be Miracles When You Believe. I got choked up because the favorite lyric in that is the hope is frail, it's hard to kill. And I think that applies here in your response.
SPEAKER_00And to I highly recommend.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. And we have a Spotify playlist too that has a lot of the songs and then some that that we mentioned on the episode. But to tie it up in a bow, we ask this question on every episode. The name of the podcast is Ohio Counseling Conversations. So what important conversations do you think counseling professionals should be having with each other and or their clients in our state?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that we should be talking with clients about. I don't know why this just came to mind. Maybe because it's something that I've noticed is of particular importance working in a non-clinical capacity with high schoolers last week. I was helping run like a music theater summer camp for high schoolers. And I think we need to be talking about the importance of like fundamental basics with regard to sleep and
Sleep Eating And Mental Health Basics
SPEAKER_00eating and just how important that is. I know that might seem just like totally out of nowhere, but that's just what's on my mind right now is just how foundational good sleep hygiene and you know caring for ourselves in a nutritional capacity is to our holistic well-being and our mental health and our ability to be resilient in the face of challenges and tolerate distress. And so I think that like that can be easily something that's pushed to the side. But like if you look at it, it can actually be like the the genesis or origin of a lot of of concerns. And if it's not the origin of a lot of concerns, it is a key to managing a lot of concerns, is like taking a look at what's going on with sleep, what's going on with eating, and how we're caring for ourselves in those ways, just because I saw it a lot last week and had that discussion again in a non-clinical capacity a lot with regard to sleep and eating.
SPEAKER_02Masl's hierarchy, right? Like let's build on the foundation. And if the foundation is grumbling, we gotta sometimes intervene there to begin with.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Chase, this is lovely conversation. And we appreciate and value your time and your intention and actions within OCA and beyond. Thank you so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02That's our conversation with Dr. Chase Morgan Swainey, our newest OCA president, counselor educator, and clinician. If there's a thread running through everything we talked about, it's that the room, the classroom, and the profession aren't separate things, they feed each other. The clients we sit with shape how we teach, what we study, and what we advocate for. That's a good thing to carry into your week. If this conversation resonated, do me a favor, follow or subscribe wherever you're listening, and share it with a colleague who'd appreciate it. That's still the best way new counselors find this show. And if you're an Ohio counselor who isn't yet plugged into OCA, consider this your nudge. We'll drop a link in the show notes.
Closing Thanks And Listener Nudge
SPEAKER_02I'm Dr. Marissa Cargill, and this has been Ohio Counseling Conversations. Until next time, take good care of yourselves and of each other.